Bye bye Cuba

[derg]

My views are generally like this.

Am I a Trump fan? Erm, no. And no, it's not because of partisan politics because I don't belong to any particular political party, it's because I'm an American that planned on the nation being at an entirely different level of economic growth, cultural achievement and technological leadership.

So i think of it like this. There's a certain member of my family that has the "Midas Touch". Literally everything this person touches, in one way or another, turned to absolute crap and the family splits into one sect that enables the behavior and the other sect of the family runs around sweeping up broken glass, fecal material and putting the "fine china" back in the credenza.

That's exactly how I see this.

He did something. I literally have no faith it was his idea, that there's a larger strategic direction (dammit, I said I wouldn't use 'strategic' or 'tactical' EVER AGAIN) or that someone didn't just drop it on his desk, said "sign it! it'll be good PR in these dark times" or it's just some random-assed crap that he had a dream about.

Ultimately, we're going to put our 1950's differences between Cuba and the US and resume trade on the same level that we've done with our previous adversaries. "Little Cubas" beef with a dead Castro is as irrelevant in 2017 as some of my fellow brothaz screams for reparations and is only being stoked to make a stand for Latin America and people still holding on to the "Because America said so, now do it" mentality of the past.

It's like a "No Japanese" sign up in the window at a Honolulu bar and grill because of Pearl Harbor. But the establishment is owned by some 22 year old hipster that will, blissfully, brag about how "Just got back from Vietnam man, it was amaaaaaaaaaaazing"

So no, it's not because of Trump. It's because I fundamentally have zero confidence in the game plan forward with the Cuba policy because it reads like it was written on the back of a cocktail napkin over the weekend because the administration hasn't proven itself to be competent on any level.

But, you know, let it burn. Enjoy. I'm almost economically irrelevant anyway as I rapidly approach retirement.

 

[JordanD]

How many of them are probably smuggling weapons that we can do anything about? Don't get it twisted, this isn't the only reason. It's just a reason.

Is it really that relevant when we sell billions of dollars of weapons to those terrorists in Saudi Arabia?

 

[KLB]

My views are generally like this.

Am I a Trump fan? Erm, no. And no, it's not because of partisan politics because I don't belong to any particular political party, it's because I'm an American that planned on the nation being at an entirely different level of economic growth, cultural achievement and technological leadership.

So i think of it like this. There's a certain member of my family that has the "Midas Touch". Literally everything this person touches, in one way or another, turned to absolute crap and the family splits into one sect that enables the behavior and the other sect of the family runs around sweeping up broken glass, fecal material and putting the "fine china" back in the credenza.

That's exactly how I see this.

He did something. I literally have no faith it was his idea, that there's a larger strategic direction (dammit, I said I wouldn't use 'strategic' or 'tactical' EVER AGAIN) or that someone didn't just drop it on his desk, said "sign it! it'll be good PR in these dark times" or it's just some random-assed crap that he had a dream about.

Ultimately, we're going to put our 1950's differences between Cuba and the US and resume trade on the same level that we've done with our previous adversaries. "Little Cubas" beef with a dead Castro is as irrelevant in 2017 as some of my fellow brothaz screams for reparations and is only being stoked to make a stand for Latin America and people still holding on to the "Because America said so, now do it" mentality of the past.

It's like a "No Japanese" sign up in the window at a Honolulu bar and grill because of Pearl Harbor. But the establishment is owned by some 22 year old hipster that will, blissfully, brag about how "Just got back from Vietnam man, it was amaaaaaaaaaaazing"

So no, it's not because of Trump. It's because I fundamentally have zero confidence in the game plan forward with the Cuba policy because it reads like it was written on the back of a cocktail napkin over the weekend because the administration hasn't proven itself to be competent on any level.

But, you know, let it burn. Enjoy. I'm almost economically irrelevant anyway as I rapidly approach retirement.

Come on @Derg . We're just trying to get a "better deal". Obama's deal was absolutely terrible.

 

[matthew]

Well, so does China. More than half of North Korean trade is with - you guessed it, China. Where we have also have abundant travel and trade. So I would doubt that is really a reason at all.

Most Cuban trade is with Canada, The Netherlands China and Venezuela. I doubt North Korea amounts to anything material at all.

Trade itself isn't the issue, its the smuggling of arms. It's in China's best interest to stabilize the region through legal trade, not the smuggling of arms. I'm not saying its not happening, just saying China isn't pouring 100LL onto a dumpster fire. Cuba is smuggling weapons to North Korea. Period. They've been caught before I'm sure they'll get caught again.

Is it really that relevant when we sell billions of dollars of weapons to those terrorists in Saudi Arabia?

I agree that selling arms to the Saudis is wrong but trust me, North Korea is an existential threat to some of our best friends: South Korea and Japan. North Korea could level Seoul in a day and there's nothing we could do about it. There is a reason why top brass speak of the devastation a military conflict with North Korea would cause.

 

[derg]

Come on @Derg . We're just trying to get a "better deal". Obama's deal was absolutely terrible.

Let a sovereign country engage in self-governance. if Cuba wants their military to own hotel chains and strip clubs, SO BE IT. Now if it's about human rights abuses, which may I remind you that we just kissed the rings of some much worse regimes a few weeks ago, there's an international system for addressing such. But 60 (??) years of embargo has become nothing more than a grudge match with a neighbor in modern times.

I can't wait for the "THEY ALLIED WITH THE SOVIETS!" and the smirk Cuban accented "Funny you should say that, maing!"

 

[drunkenbeagle]

Cuba is smuggling weapons to North Korea. Period.

I suspect it is probably the other way around, as the international arms trade is pretty much the only "legitimate" business in North Korea. I'm sure refurbishing Soviet-era small arms is a substantial business in the Hermit Kingdom. Counterfeiting and narcotics being their other go-to exports.

Cuba probably finds it far easier to make money through tourism, cigars, agriculture exports and the like. And I'm sure they could buy whatever they want from Russia, North Korea likely just gives them a better price.

 

[matthew]

I suspect it is probably the other way around, as the international arms trade is pretty much the only "legitimate" business in North Korea. I'm sure refurbishing Soviet-era small arms is a substantial business in the Hermit Kingdom. Counterfeiting and narcotics being their other go-to exports.

Cuba probably finds it far easier to make money through tourism, cigars, agriculture exports and the like. And I'm sure they could buy whatever they want from Russia, North Korea likely just gives them a better price.

Good point but it seems like North Korea needs weapons much more than Cuba!

 

[Lawman]

I suspect it is probably the other way around, as the international arms trade is pretty much the only "legitimate" business in North Korea. I'm sure refurbishing Soviet-era small arms is a substantial business in the Hermit Kingdom. Counterfeiting and narcotics being their other go-to exports.

Cuba probably finds it far easier to make money through tourism, cigars, agriculture exports and the like. And I'm sure they could buy whatever they want from Russia, North Korea likely just gives them a better price.

North Korea is one of the biggest proliferators of modern MANPADS right now.

They've reverse engineered and home grown built a few SA-18 like systems that are constantly finding their way into stockpiles of legitimate dirtbag dictators and terror groups like Hamas and ISIS alike. Here are some open source of them in Syria. http://spioenkop.blogspot.com/2016/03/north-korean-ht-16pgj-manpads-in-syria.html

They've gotta get those systems out through 3rd party affiliates, but it happens every day. People think of trade embargo like we are blockading their harbors and shooting down planes but it's nowhere near reality. In the end it's just state sponsored arms smuggling inside legitimate business transactions. Freighter full of "rice" with a couple dozen crates of bad stuff buried under piles of crates and a lot of fraudulent paperwork.

 

[Richman]

I'm almost economically irrelevant anyway as I rapidly approach retirement.

Interesting phrase, but accurate for those in our demographic.

No kids so we partake very little in the bloated, overpriced health care or university systems as they now exist. Both of those systems have more parasites between the source and the end user than a dog caught in the annual tick hatch.

If you're like me, little to no long term or CC debt, which means the financial suckers don't have their claws in us either.

I'll admit to some modest consumer consumption, but hardly enough to make the meter move much.

There are folks out there giving money away with both hands and will come away with very little to show for it....

 

[drunkenbeagle]

North Korea is one of the biggest proliferators of modern MANPADS right now.

They've reverse engineered and home grown built a few SA-18 like systems that are constantly finding their way into stockpiles of legitimate dirtbag dictators and terror groups like Hamas and ISIS alike.

Okay, but what exactly does that have to do with Cuba? The Cubans were already fairly well stocked with anti-aircraft equipment from the Soviets. Regardless, they don't believe any US attack is remotely likely (because it isn't). So they aren't huge buyers, and marginally more weapons in Cuba aren't a huge threat to us either. They aren't putting ICBMs there...

I'm sure the North Koreans could try to move their merchandise through Cuba, but they already do so through plenty of other channels already. And they aren't exactly the only players in the international arms trade.

 

[knot4u]

Interesting phrase, but accurate for those in our demographic.

No kids so we partake very little in the bloated, overpriced health care or university systems as they now exist. Both of those systems have more parasites between the source and the end user than a dog caught in the annual tick hatch.

If you're like me, little to no long term or CC debt, which means the financial suckers don't have their claws in us either.

I'll admit to some modest consumer consumption, but hardly enough to make the meter move much.

There are folks out there giving money away with both hands and will come away with very little to show for it....

You sound as if you live just like me.

 

[Lawman]

Okay, but what exactly does that have to do with Cuba? The Cubans were already fairly well stocked with anti-aircraft equipment from the Soviets. Regardless, they don't believe any US attack is remotely likely (because it isn't). So they aren't huge buyers, and marginally more weapons in Cuba aren't a huge threat to us either. They aren't putting ICBMs there...

I'm sure the North Koreans could try to move their merchandise through Cuba, but they already do so through plenty of other channels already. And they aren't exactly the only players in the international arms trade.

It's a chicken vs egg situation.

Right now Cuba and Venezuela are sorta the bad player go betweens in the Western Hemisphere as far as moving weapons and equipment from world wide bad guys with exports to run (Iran, NK, etc). They facilitate arms trafficking as one of several illegitimate business dealings that work directly against peace in the region in general and US interests specifically.

They do that because of the whole US vs them situation playing that card of "you punish us so I'll punish you."

So the question becomes do we reward bad behavior for now by opening ties in the hopes that closer ties develop and they stop that side deal, or do we make them stop that side deal before we reward them.

I'm not sure opening Cuba up to mass capital of tourism is going to necessarily do what it did in say Vietnam who saw China playing games and has tried to mend and strengthen ties with the US because they see a bigger problem. Cuba exist in a hemisphere where we are their China.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[matthew]

It's a chicken vs egg situation.

Right now Cuba and Venezuela are sorta the bad player go betweens in the Western Hemisphere as far as moving weapons and equipment from world wide bad guys with exports to run (Iran, NK, etc). They facilitate arms trafficking as one of several illegitimate business dealings that work directly against peace in the region in general and US interests specifically.

They do that because of the whole US vs them situation playing that card of "you punish us so I'll punish you."

So the question becomes do we reward bad behavior for now by opening ties in the hopes that closer ties develop and they stop that side deal, or do we make them stop that side deal before we reward them.

I'm not sure opening Cuba up to mass capital of tourism is going to necessarily do what it did in say Vietnam who saw China playing games and has tried to mend and strengthen ties with the US because they see a bigger problem. Cuba exist in a hemisphere where we are their China.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Especially for no quid pro quo. What is Cuba changing in return for our relaxed travel policy?

 

[bucksmith]

This thread does not help our libtard reputation. I'm shocked we don't have any Cuban Americans here to speak up. President Obamas deal was a salutation to the revolution. Next time I drop off some shampoo and razors to our friends in Venezuela, I'll ask how that's working out for them.
The only thing I haven't heard from our president that is needed? We are reopening our doors to the boat people that make it to our shores from Cuba. Because after Prez O paid off the Castros, he shut down folks swimming for freedom.

 

[mshunter]

I really don't care. I would have liked to visit Cuba, but beyond that, it's an oppressive communist country that funneling any money into perpetuates that.

So pretty much so what. I ain't mad about it. We had little to no effect on their daily lives, and this will have no effect on ours.

 

[Lawman]

I really don't care. I would have liked to visit Cuba, but beyond that, it's an oppressive communist country that funneling any money into perpetuates that.

So pretty much so what. I ain't mad about it. We had little to no effect on their daily lives, and this will have no effect on ours.

Yeah but Trump made the decision. Therefore it's time to be mad about it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Lawman]

Interesting phrase, but accurate for those in our demographic.

No kids so we partake very little in the bloated, overpriced health care or university systems as they now exist. Both of those systems have more parasites between the source and the end user than a dog caught in the annual tick hatch.

If you're like me, little to no long term or CC debt, which means the financial suckers don't have their claws in us either.

I'll admit to some modest consumer consumption, but hardly enough to make the meter move much.

There are folks out there giving money away with both hands and will come away with very little to show for it....

Yeah but they said I could finance the jet ski at 7.8% for 72 months with no money down. With payments that low it only made sense to get two.....

 

[Autothrust Blue]

(dammit, I said I wouldn't use 'strategic' or 'tactical' EVER AGAIN).

Tiger team meets down the hall in 20 minutes.

 

[Murdoughnut]

Having gotten to know the Cuban ambassador to the US the past couple of years, I've always been impressed by his resolve in talking about his country. The Cubans response to Trump's order is painfully brilliant.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/17/politics/cuba-trump-response/index.html

"We have deep concerns by the respect and the guaranties of the human rights in that country, where there is a large number of cases of murder, brutality and police abuse, particularly against the African Americans; the right to live is violated as a result of deaths by firearms," the statement read.

It went on to list a litany of concerns: racial discrimination, salary inequality between genders, the marginalization of immigrants and refugees from Islamic and other countries, Trump's proposed wall on the southern border, his decision to pull out of the Paris climate accord, the imprisonment of enemy combatants at Guantanamo Bay, the killing of US and foreign citizens in drone attacks, the preface for and conduct of the wars in Iraq and other Middle Eastern countries, and estimates that the Republican health care bill would cause 23 million people to lose medical insurance.

 

[drunkenbeagle]

This thread does not help our libtard reputation. I'm shocked we don't have any Cuban Americans here to speak up. President Obamas deal was a salutation to the revolution. Next time I drop off some shampoo and razors to our friends in Venezuela, I'll ask how that's working out for them.
The only thing I haven't heard from our president that is needed? We are reopening our doors to the boat people that make it to our shores from Cuba. Because after Prez O paid off the Castros, he shut down folks swimming for freedom.

I think you would find that Cubans here in Florida at least are pretty evenly split on the issue.

Anyway, boats from Cuba to Florida largely stopped quite a while ago. Easier to go to Isla Mujeres, or just fly to Mexico, and then walk up to the US border. Or, at least it was easier until this year.