ALPA call to action flight time limits, open to everyone

Maintaining the Current Minimum First Officer Qualifications

The best and most important safety feature of any airline operation is a well-trained, highly experienced, and qualified professional pilot. With a solid foundation of training and experience, pilots are essential in maintaining the safety of our system and ensuring that aviation safety continues to advance. Between 1990 and 2009, more than 1,100 people died in accidents on U.S. Part 121 passenger airlines; since new pilot training and qualifications requirements were passed by Congress in 2010, the United States has not experienced a single fatality on these carriers.







That is the dumbest thing I've read today. Correlation does not imply causation. This is such a far stretch to even suggest that! Colgan Air 3407 lead to the new FO requirements. Other than Colgan 3407, I can't think of any airline accident between 1990 to 2009 when a low-time pilot d!cked up and killed everyone. From 1990, we've had two fatal 737 rudder hardovers, Eagle roselawn and Comair DTW when icing and turboprops and holding speeds/guidance was lacking, TWA 800, ValuJet 592, AA at LIT (senior checkairman), AA rudder smashing, Air Midwest mis-rigged elevator and overweight people average weights, Ocean Chalks wing snap, Comair wrong runway (still an experienced crew by the 1,500 hr rule), and a couple I'm sure I missed. But to suggest that the reason we haven't had a fatal crash since 2010 in the USA, while we lost 1,100 people from 1990 to 2009, is BECAUSE we passed the new pilot qualification rule? Frankly, that's almost insulting to the crews of those accidents.



This is why I have issues with certain ALPA call to actions. You want support, fine, but don't use BS to rile up support for the cause. Just like 3rd class medical reform and the steps ALPA took against it.
 
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Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Maintaining the Current Minimum First Officer Qualifications

The best and most important safety feature of any airline operation is a well-trained, highly experienced, and qualified professional pilot. With a solid foundation of training and experience, pilots are essential in maintaining the safety of our system and ensuring that aviation safety continues to advance. Between 1990 and 2009, more than 1,100 people died in accidents on U.S. Part 121 passenger airlines; since new pilot training and qualifications requirements were passed by Congress in 2010, the United States has not experienced a single fatality on these carriers.







That is the dumbest thing I've read today. Correlation does not imply causation. This is such a far stretch to even suggest that! Colgan Air 3407 lead to the new FO requirements. Other than Colgan 3407, I can't think of any airline accident between 1990 to 2009 when a low-time pilot d!cked up and killed everyone. From 1990, we've had two fatal 737 rudder hardovers, Eagle roselawn and Comair DTW when icing and turboprops and holding speeds/guidance was lacking, TWA 800, ValuJet 592, AA at LIT (senior checkairman), AA rudder smashing, Air Midwest mis-rigged elevator and overweight people average weights, Ocean Chalks wing snap, Comair wrong runway (still an experienced crew by the 1,500 hr rule), and a couple I'm sure I missed. But to suggest that the reason we haven't had a fatal crash since 2010 in the USA, while we lost 1,100 people from 1990 to 2009, is BECAUSE we passed the new pilot qualification rule? Frankly, that's almost insulting to the crews of those accidents.



This is why I have issues with certain ALPA call to actions. You want support, fine, but don't use BS to rile up support for the cause. Just like 3rd class medical reform and the steps ALPA took against it.
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You forget about the gulfstream boys from 3701? Just because they only killed themselves and not passengers doesn't mean they can't be added to your 3407 finger pointing.
 
Ok, yes, and to be fair I did state I probably forgot a couple. Pinnacle 3701 was sheer stupidity. And arguably, something they did because they were empty and most likely would not have done with passengers onboard. Thinking some more, there was that Corporate Air (or Regions Air?) Jetstream that went down at Kirksville on a nonprecision approach.

The point still stands. Their official stance is trying to tie a relationship of airline crashes, using historical record since 1990-2009, and the fact that none have been fatal since 2010. It's insulting, and quite an unproven assertion.
 
Since I really don't care to reply and start a 10 page argument... I won't really give my opinion on most of that post, other than the fact half the mainline accidents you listed had absolutely nothing to do with pilot error.

And for what it's worth, I'd be willing to bet that regional pilots wouldn't be getting paid what they are right now if it wasn't for this rule. And as someone who isn't exactly rich but doesn't sweat paying the bills every month, I like that quite a bit.
 
JordanD said:
Since I really don't care to reply and start a 10 page argument... I won't really give my opinion on most of that post, other than the fact half the mainline accidents you listed had absolutely nothing to do with pilot error.
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And you're right. So why is ALPA using it and quoting it in the 1,100 fatalities?

And for what it's worth, I'd be willing to bet that regional pilots wouldn't be getting paid what they are right now if it wasn't for this rule. And as someone who isn't exactly rich but doesn't sweat paying the bills every month, I like that quite a bit.
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That's fine. Use that argument. But I have a hard time taking that bolded portion of ALPA statement seriously. It's sensationalism at best. To give a death toll number at 1,100 fatalities in 1990-2009, and then the passage of the new qualification rule, and 0 fatals for 2010-present does not show causation.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
And you're right. So why is ALPA using it and quoting it in the 1,100 fatalities?




That's fine. Use that argument. But I have a hard time taking that bolded portion of ALPA statement seriously. It's sensationalism at best. To give a death toll number at 1,100 fatalities in 1990-2009, and then the passage of the new qualification rule, and 0 fatals for 2010-present does not show causation.
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Ah, I get your point now. That's what happens when I don't read good. Still all for the rule though. I thought I was ready for this stuff at 500 hours, and maybe I was and would have done fine, but I'm sure damn glad I had another 1,400 or so of "big boy pants" experience making decisions and scaring the crap out of myself a few times. And I'll want some FOs with some of that experience when I upgrade.
 
I am happy to see ALPA weigh in here. However they are late to the party. The 1500 hour rule came about after the Continental Express Buffalo crash in Feb. of 2009 just a few weeks after US Air 1549. The difference in outcome was stunning and also the difference in experience levels of the flight crews. Was that the real reason for the accident? No, there were many factors to that accident and overall flight time was not the main reason just one of the variables. It applied to the F/O.

However it galvanized public opinion and the opinion of legislators. It was a simple comparison, that was not really correct but politically expedient. Highly experienced crew with a catastrophic situation,outside the certification and training envelope of the aircraft and the carrier. The result, a miraculous landing on the Hudson River, and all survive.

The Buffalo crash was a normal flight with a normal functioning aircraft but an accident chain that included fatigue, bad training, questionable qualifications and a spotty training record and an totally inappropriate response to a stick shaker activation. The pilot monitoring, very inexperienced and wrong actions.

CAPA, the Coalition of Airline Pilot Associations, the lobbying arm of Non-ALPA carriers, seized on this issue and single-highhandedly got the 1500 hour rule through congress. ALPA was not in the room at the time. Sully and others personally went up to the hill and lobbied for this and CAPA orgaized the families of the Continental accident.

CAPA led the fight for 1500 hours and made it the law. I am happy to see ALPA on board. The 1500 hour rule is not perfect but it is better than nothing.
 
I agree using the death tolls from previous to the law going into effect is bogus. I edited that out and put some personal antidote about how when I was at the regionals, I flew with many good pilots who had high time and low time. However flying the airplane was a small part of the job and there is no substitute for experience. Flying with a fairly low time pilot into LGA one day was quite fatiguing as I was having to basically flight instruct (granted, I used to instruct out of Teterboro so I had the home town advantage).

Contrast that to one day I was doing the Expressway visual into LGA as a downgraded FO. The jumpseater, a mainline guy, made a comment about how nice it was to have someone who knew what he was doing before knowing I was a typed guy with PIC in the plane. I made the comment I was a downgrade, my life sucks etc. but his comment stuck with me. The Captain has enough to worry about, let alone if an FO can not get him violated on a simple visual procedure in a high workload environment.

Increasing the flight time reqs has meant large increases in pay (not out of line with where they should be, it was so low before), commuter paid for hotels on the front end, and an increase in mainline flying. All these have a positive effect on the folks entering the industry. Previous to this, sleeping in crew rooms was the norm because no one could afford to buy even a cheap hotel. We could hardly afford our student loan payments and I knew many who actually lived in crash pads full time.

Think back to the majority of accidents and you'll find connections with pay for training and Gulfstream with them. This has completely ceased as well. We won't know the fallout for another 5-10 years but my guess is it forced change for the positive which in our highly safety sensitive environment is a really good thing.
 
Derg said:
Like New Jersey being some sort of less expensive equivalent to the SF Bay Area? Ha!
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Yes. NJ is already a very small state as it is and there are far less expensive real estate prices and schools from a 2 hr radius from NYC into NJ versus a 2 hr radius around SFO. :)

wheelsup said:
I agree using the death tolls from previous to the law going into effect is bogus.
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+1

Think back to the majority of accidents and you'll find connections with pay for training and Gulfstream with them. This has completely ceased as well. We won't know the fallout for another 5-10 years but my guess is it forced change for the positive which in our highly safety sensitive environment is a really good thing.
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But how much so? In a 2-man crew, if one is from Gulfstream, can one really blame "Gulfstream Academy training" as responsible for the crash years and years later? Pinnacle 3701 was really bad but given their two personalities, that accident would have happened Gulfstream or not. For Colgan 3407, the CA was Gulfstream but the FO was not. She was a fairly experienced CFI who taught ab-initio students who I'm sure tried to kill her in those days. Some even put Comair at LEX in the Gulfstream category because of the FO, but that's a pretty far stretch.

Low time programs can work, as they do in Europe. But that requires standards, the ability to wash someone out even if they have money, and an airline's thorough background check that can find out how many checkride failures a pilot has. Colgan 3407's CA should never have made it to that seat based on training issues and failures from before. In Europe they get thousands of applications and after a grueling process, handpick down to maybe a 100 or so for the abinitio program. But as it was in the United States, the low-time programs from 2002-2008 were largely pay to play. As long as you put up the cash, or were approved for a loan, it allowed everyone in. There were 0 standards. That's a problem for a zero time / abinitio program.
 
Quality of life costs money in DINKWorld.

There is literally nowhere inexpensive that I have any interest in living.

I'm sure Romulus, MI is cheap as hell and I could drive to work, but LOLZ.
 
No pilot I knew at 9E or NW lived in Romulus. See the WIA pointers thread....... Ann Arbor is where it's at and anything north of DTW by 20 minutes or more. :)
 
Derg said:
Quality of life costs money in DINKWorld.

There is literally nowhere inexpensive that I have any interest in living.

I'm sure Romulus, MI is cheap as hell and I could drive to work, but LOLZ.
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Even the places that were once lame and affordable are getting lame and expensive now. No, Omaha, your marketing campaign doesn't make me want to live there.
 
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