Pipelines, Flows, Career Decisions, etc.

[bp]

Read what I wrote. Here I will even quote it for you.

Sorry not sorry, I skim (tbh in your posts it takes way too long for the train to get to the station, tend to lose interest after the first thus or in fact)

and to answer your longwinded, roundabout underlined/bolded question, 5 years; but I had put it on the back burner due to other career opportunities that presented themselves. Anyone that complains that it'll take, like, literally foreverrr to get to 1500 needs a reality check. If you need to be an airline pilot tomorrow, go to ATP.

you're reasoning with yourself here.

Its a tough job with a lot of responsibility and a lot of time on the road. If it takes a student pilot 10 or more years to get to a 100K plus salary when he/she can see that and better in IT in 2 years out of college and they don't spend 4 days a week away from home while forced to wear a hat inside why would they want to be a pilot?

still trying to determine your logic for age 67 other than "they know stuff" and "there aren't any new pilots" as if these guys will last long enough in the labor force to cushion the blow.

edit: oh and unions don't set up seniority by age, it's DOH: but you know that, I'm sure. Younger guys will have more longevity.

 

[NickH]

The 65+ guys are going to Medevac...

 

[av8tr1]

Sorry not sorry, I skim (tbh in your posts it takes way too long for the train to get to the station, tend to lose interest after the first thus or in fact)

and to answer your longwinded, roundabout underlined/bolded question, 5 years; but I had put it on the back burner due to other career opportunities that presented themselves. Anyone that complains that it'll take, like, literally foreverrr to get to 1500 needs a reality check. If you need to be an airline pilot tomorrow, go to ATP.

you're reasoning with yourself here.


still trying to determine your logic for age 67 other than "they know stuff" and "there aren't any new pilots" as if these guys will last long enough in the labor force to cushion the blow.

edit: oh and unions don't set up seniority by age, it's DOH: but you know that, I'm sure. Younger guys will have more longevity.

 

[bp]

The 65+ guys are going to Medevac...

where, in the stretcher?

 

[av8tr1]

Bumping the retirement age to 67 would cause career stagnation and hurt younger pilots. Meanwhile guys that should have retired get to keep making money, yet their career progression was largely helped by mandatory retirements.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yes, just like they did when they were junior. It's the way it works. Nothing has changed.

Sorry not sorry, I skim (tbh in your posts it takes way too long for the train to get to the station, tend to lose interest after the first thus or in fact)

and to answer your longwinded, roundabout underlined/bolded question, 5 years; but I had put it on the back burner due to other career opportunities that presented themselves. Anyone that complains that it'll take, like, literally foreverrr to get to 1500 needs a reality check. If you need to be an airline pilot tomorrow, go to ATP.

you're reasoning with yourself here.


still trying to determine your logic for age 67 other than "they know stuff" and "there aren't any new pilots" as if these guys will last long enough in the labor force to cushion the blow.

edit: oh and unions don't set up seniority by age, it's DOH: but you know that, I'm sure. Younger guys will have more longevity.

Let me dumb this down to really simple math for you.

You don't have enough pilots to do the job "now", so your solution is to get rid of more already trained pilots to solve the lack of pilots. Yeah that makes sense.....

 

[bp]

Let me dumb this down to really simple math for you.

You don't have enough pilots to do the job "now", so your solution is to get rid of more already trained pilots to solve the lack of pilots. Yeah that makes sense.....

You keep complaining about how there's no incentive for anyone to go to 121, and then criticize the main incentive (movement/retirements). You don't get both.
People aren't getting raises at the regionals because the boards suddenly realized the financial plight of the FO, and had mercy upon his checking account. They have to retire for this to work, we need 1500 to get the gig. The wages will keep rising and attract some more people to the industry; sadly, I think it will never be as popular as it once was because people want an 'easy' tech job working for Amazon making 120k at 80 hours a week.
Too bad, so sad. But we should keep 70 year olds in the left seat of a heavy, for the good of the company. Right?

 

[av8tr1]

You keep complaining about how there's no incentive for anyone to go to 121, and then criticize the main incentive (movement/retirements). You don't get both.
People aren't getting raises at the regionals because the boards suddenly realized the financial plight of the FO, and had mercy upon his checking account. They have to retire for this to work, we need 1500 to get the gig. The wages will keep rising and attract some more people to the industry; sadly, I think it will never be as popular as it once was because people want an 'easy' tech job working for Amazon making 120k at 80 hours a week.
Too bad, so sad. But we should keep 70 year olds in the left seat of a heavy, for the good of the company. Right?

No, because as you accurately point out there are not enough people coming into this industry to make up the loss because as you said, "people want an 'easy' tech job working for Amazon".

If we had kids lined up like we did in the past to be a pilot I would agree, but we don't. And we are short pilots. Mainly because of all the older pilots who complain about the industry and suggest the younger generation go elsewhere.

But hey if we throw away the ridiculous seniority system we might get a bunch of those former pilots who left the industry but haven't hit the "old man stage" yet. We might even get some of those guys who don't currently fly 121, you know like the majority of the pilot jobs out there, like guys with ATPs who have engineering jobs but don't want to walk away from their 200K a year to go sit right seat for 50K to start because you know seniority.

I've got a buddy who is a test pilot at Boeing. We had this very conversation a few weeks ago. He is in his early 40s, ATP with 1000s of hours of Boeing heavy time. He will never leave his job at Boeing because he would have to start way at the beginning as a FO and "pay his dues". Yet the guy test flies new Boeing airplanes to make sure they work for the airline guys. He always wanted to be a airline pilot but due to seniority he would never apply. Ironically enough he went to Boeing because the airlines wouldn't hire him way back then. Started in the flight test group in the back of the plane doing instrument monitoring.

 

[mikecweb]

Yea let's listen to a guy that wanted to fly at the airline but never applied....
FFS is this really happening. Enjoy 91/135 and the lack of the seniority system. Let me know how that works out for you.

 

[bp]

No, because as you accurately point out there are not enough people coming into this industry to make up the loss because as you said, "people want an 'easy' tech job working for Amazon".

If we had kids lined up like we did in the past to be a pilot I would agree, but we don't. And we are short pilots. Mainly because of all the older pilots who complain about the industry and suggest the younger generation go elsewhere.

But hey if we throw away the ridiculous seniority system we might get a bunch of those former pilots who left the industry but haven't hit the "old man stage" yet. We might even get some of those guys who don't currently fly 121, you know like the majority of the pilot jobs out there, like guys with ATPs who have engineering jobs but don't want to walk away from their 200K a year to go sit right seat for 50K to start because you know seniority.

I've got a buddy who is a test pilot at Boeing. We had this very conversation a few weeks ago. He is in his early 40s, ATP with 1000s of hours of Boeing heavy time. He will never leave his job at Boeing because he would have to start way at the beginning as a FO and "pay his dues". Yet the guy test flies new Boeing airplanes to make sure they work for the airline guys. He always wanted to be a airline pilot but due to seniority he would never apply. Ironically enough he went to Boeing because the airlines wouldn't hire him way back then. Started in the flight test group in the back of the plane doing instrument monitoring.

Your friend flies Boeings, he has never been an airline pilot. Why should he walk into the left seat at a legacy because of time in type? I figured after being on this board a while, you'd have realized that there's a little more to being an airline pilot besides driving the ship.

 

[NickH]

where, in the stretcher?

They should be. I got to skim through a large medevac provider's resume pile a few weeks ago. 100% 65+ ex-airline guys. It was enlightening...

 

[av8tr1]

Your friend flies Boeings, he has never been an airline pilot. Why should he walk into the left seat at a legacy because of time in type? I figured after being on this board a while, you'd have realized that there's a little more to being an airline pilot besides driving the ship.

No there really isn't. We are glorified highly paid bus drivers. The fact that you are even asking that question shows what is wrong with this industry. Hell they once taught monkeys to fly combat aircraft.

 

[ClarkGriswold]

Read what I wrote. Here I will even quote it for you.



But how long did it take you to go from zero hours as a student to a single engine commercial? Add that number in and I bet its a it longer than 19.5 months.

But lets say that still under 4 years, congrats you are one of the lucky guys who was able to do it quickly. Not everyone can do that. I think more people are not able to do that then can. But I am sure your single data point example "must" be exactly what everyone else experiences.

So if it's so easy why do we have the lack of pilots we do now and the far worse forecast in the next few years if it's SO easy even a caveman can do it.

11 months, 0 time to CFI while going to school full time here. He's not the only one. Far from it...

 

[ClarkGriswold]

No there really isn't. We are glorified highly paid bus drivers. The fact that you are even asking that question shows what is wrong with this industry. Hell they once taught monkeys to fly combat aircraft.

I bet you just don't want a seniroity system because you think you could out work/out smart everyone now and be a 777 Captain from the start. It's very obvious you think you will make out better in a merit based system.

 

[bp]

No there really isn't. We are glorified highly paid bus drivers. The fact that you are even asking that question shows what is wrong with this industry. Hell they once taught monkeys to fly combat aircraft.

"We" is first person.

You clearly do not have the experience to realize what makes a fantastic or terrible captain, you'd realize it after a month of throwing gear as an FO.
Or, you'd be the guy who thinks he can drive the airplane better and needs to have the captains job, despite being 10 hrs off IOE.


Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

 

[av8tr1]

I bet you just don't want a seniroity system because you think you could out work/out smart everyone now and be a 777 Captain from the start. It's very obvious you think you will make out better in a merit based system.

Nope I don't have shiny jet syndrome. This isn't about me. It doesn't matter what I fly or how long you guys took to get to the right seat in a 737. The topic is discussing how to have enough pilots to fill all those seats.

The fact is we don't have enough pilots to fly all our flights "now". AND there are not enough pilots coming into the industry to make up the difference of retirements.

You guys are suggesting we get rid of current and qualified pilots to "solve the issue". That is beyond stupid. I can't even fathom the lack of logic that goes into that line of thinking.

If we don't have enough pilots, under a seniority system those old guys hanging out a couple of years more are not taking seats away from the new guys now are they.

 

[ClarkGriswold]

Nope I don't have shiny jet syndrome. This isn't about me. It doesn't matter what I fly or how long you guys took to get to the right seat in a 737. The topic is discussing how to have enough pilots to fill all those seats.

The fact is we don't have enough pilots to fly all our flights "now". AND there are not enough pilots coming into the industry to make up the difference of retirements.

You guys are suggesting we get rid of current and qualified pilots to "solve the issue". That is beyond stupid. I can't even fathom the lack of logic that goes into that line of thinking.

If we don't have enough pilots, under a seniority system those old guys hanging out a couple of years more are not taking seats away from the new guys now are they.

Last time, the mandatory retirement age is mandatory. Doesn't matter if it happens now or in 2 years. These guys can't reverse their age. Unions or not nothing will change that. There has been pay raises, alot of movement/ growth. What is it again you were saying that we need that hasn't already happened in the last 2 years?

 

[JordanD]

Nope I don't have shiny jet syndrome. This isn't about me. It doesn't matter what I fly or how long you guys took to get to the right seat in a 737. The topic is discussing how to have enough pilots to fill all those seats.

The fact is we don't have enough pilots to fly all our flights "now". AND there are not enough pilots coming into the industry to make up the difference of retirements.

You guys are suggesting we get rid of current and qualified pilots to "solve the issue". That is beyond stupid. I can't even fathom the lack of logic that goes into that line of thinking.

If we don't have enough pilots, under a seniority system those old guys hanging out a couple of years more are not taking seats away from the new guys now are they.

I was going to come up with a snarky reply but all I can think of is what on earth are you on about?

Please do tell me how you'd implement a merit based system at an airline with 14,000 pilots. I'll be waiting.

 

[JordanD]

like, literally foreverrr to get to 1500 needs a reality check.

Seriously. Didn't you used to need something like 3,000 hours to earn the prestige of flying a 1900 around?

 

[av8tr1]

Last time, the mandatory retirement age is mandatory. Doesn't matter if it happens now or in 2 years. These guys can't reverse their age. Unions or not nothing will change that. There has been pay raises, alot of movement/ growth. What is it again you were saying that we need that hasn't already happened in the last 2 years?

Wasn't my idea.

Bumping the retirement age to 67 would cause career stagnation and hurt younger pilots. Meanwhile guys that should have retired get to keep making money, yet their career progression was largely helped by mandatory retirements.

I was only defending the idea. And the mandatory retirement was raised in the past. Why couldn't it be raised again?

 

[BEEF SUPREME]

It can. And likely will to protect airlines from having to raise compensation for pilots. It is short term thinking and bad for pilots. Good for management though.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk