Air Force, Air Lines eyeballing shortage and 1500 hour rule

[Springer]

Well, it is self-selection. When you rank-order the class, and then let the students pick what they want in rank order, the less desirable stuff is going to fall to the bottom of the achievement pool.

That changed with my class. SAC was complaining of getting the bottom of the barrel so ATC (Air Training Command) instituted a special block of a/c for the bottom 10%. Included was a C-9 (DC-9) and C-141 both considered highly desirable at the time.

 

[Lawman]

That changed with my class. SAC was complaining of getting the bottom of the barrel so ATC (Air Training Command) instituted a special block of a/c for the bottom 10%. Included was a C-9 (DC-9) and C-141 both considered highly desirable at the time.

It's amazing though that no matter how well designed a "quality spread" is, you will never stop people from showing up to a unit and making everybody wonder, "how the hell did this person get here."


Some of the best aviators I know took the longest to solo, flew the "easiest" aircraft, or did the crappiest OML wise in flight school. Doesn't matter how you try and perfect quantification of it all. Some people will just suck no matter where you put them same as some will excel.

 

[killbilly]

Meh, I'd say his statement is a little bit off the mark. I knew plenty of guys with zero hours prior to doing IFS (the program your CFI friend instructed) who rocked primary and selected jets. I also know several high time prior civvie guys (to include former 135/121 types) who straight up washed out of the program. It takes a certain type of mind, and a certain type of learning style, to succeed and it isn't something that is taught by logging a few hundred extra hours in a cessna. That being said, I did have about 250 civilian hours going into the program, and that part made the instrument work and basic flying/radios pretty easy. Once I got to jets/T-45's, all bets were off.

For the record, I don't own a minivan or anything close to it. Just sayin…...

I think it was more in jest than anything else, but I take your point.

 

[Hacker15e]

Meh, I'd say his statement is a little bit off the mark. I knew plenty of guys with zero hours prior to doing IFS (the program your CFI friend instructed) who rocked primary and selected jets. I also know several high time prior civvie guys (to include former 135/121 types) who straight up washed out of the program. It takes a certain type of mind, and a certain type of learning style, to succeed and it isn't something that is taught by logging a few hundred extra hours in a cessna. That being said, I did have about 250 civilian hours going into the program, and that part made the instrument work and basic flying/radios pretty easy. Once I got to jets/T-45's, all bets were off.

Can't speak for the USN's intents-and-purposes with IFS/IFT, but the USAF has a long-ish history (back to the 60s) of pre-flight school screening programs with light aircraft (primarily the T-41 back in the day, but later the T-3). These screening programs (once called LATR, then FSP, then EFSP) were required attendance for every student pilot, regardless of experience.

The reason was that this was a program to screen students for aptitude in a training environment like UPT. The training mechanism was set up exactly like UPT, with the same types of short periods to learn academic subjects, the dreaded "stand-up EP" training scenarios, etc. Although it trained students to go solo in a T-41, the flying training itself was secondary to ensuring students could handle the high-stress daily rigor of that 12-hour-per-day training environment. It was never about learning airmanship so much as it was learning to handle the process students were about to endure learning T-37s and T-38s.

Given that background, I think the AF massivlely fumbled the ball when it decided to cancel EFSP in the late 90s, and replaced it 5-ish years later with IFS taught by regular old civilian CFIs. IFS did nothing to replicate the stresses/tasks of the UPT training environment, instead just teaching the basic airmanship and making sure students had just the basic aptitude to be in an airplane and not get sick or scared.

Now, they've gone full circle and screening is back consolidated at one AF-run location in Pueblo, they can do that screening while simulating the SUPT environment.

 

[ryan1234]

As someone who flies both (i.e. Gods gift to aviation) helicopter ops are so much more challenging than fixed wing ops. Probably the hardest thing to do is a single pilot approach solid IFR to minimums (no you can't just descend in a hover).

Anyone who looks down on helicopter pilots has never tried to fly one. I've seen the most accomplished fixed wing pilots brought low trying to hover a Robinson.

Add combat ops to maintaining a stable hover out of ground effect with a tail wind as you mask/unmask to trade insults with the guys wearing the wrong color uniforms and you have serious work going on that would bring any fighter jock to tears. Ah....delicious fighter pilot tears......

Let me know when you've had to solely rely on a 30 year old, small pod on the right side of your jet to navigate you through a low illum night with marginal weather through the mountains at 500' +/- 50' at 500+ knots.

 

[Boris Badenov]

Girls, you're both pretty.

 

[Roger Roger]

Girls, you're both pretty.

Put the purses away.

 

[hook_dupin]

Given that background, I think the AF massivlely fumbled the ball when it decided to cancel EFSP in the late 90s, and replaced it 5-ish years later with IFS taught by regular old civilian CFIs. IFS did nothing to replicate the stresses/tasks of the UPT training environment, instead just teaching the basic airmanship and making sure students had just the basic aptitude to be in an airplane and not get sick or scared.

The other half is incentives. If a flight school washed a guy out, they then quickly found out that the school didn't get all the money for that guy. There was no incentive, bonus or reward for plucking a guy out earlier in the training pipeline where it's more cost-effective for the Air Force to do so. Instead, the civilian shops just flew all the required hours for a guy, got the money, and moved to the next warm body. Turns out the private sector is mostly motivated by money -who knew?

 

[Hacker15e]

The other half is incentives. If a flight school washed a guy out, they then quickly found out that the school didn't get all the money for that guy. There was no incentive, bonus or reward for plucking a guy out earlier in the training pipeline where it's more cost-effective for the Air Force to do so. Instead, the civilian shops just flew all the required hours for a guy, got the money, and moved to the next warm body. Turns out the private sector is mostly motivated by money -who knew?

IMHO, this goes back to whomever at HAF developed the idea for the civilian IFT/IFS in the first place. The contractors did what the contract said they were to do...

 

[Lawman]

Let me know when you've had to solely rely on a 30 year old, small pod on the right side of your jet to navigate you through a low illum night with marginal weather through the mountains at 500' +/- 50' at 500+ knots.

500 feet?

Weak sauce.

 

[Low_Level_Hell]

I know this has nothing to do with the original topic but since AF helo's were mentioned....

What do Air Force UH-1s do? I imagine all AF Huey guys do is remain CONUS flying from missile silo to missile silo and still get paid the big bucks. That has to be the best military aviation job in the country.... other than the fact they will be the first to be vaporized in WWIII.

 

[Richman]

The other half is incentives. If a flight school washed a guy out, they then quickly found out that the school didn't get all the money for that guy. There was no incentive, bonus or reward for plucking a guy out earlier in the training pipeline where it's more cost-effective for the Air Force to do so. Instead, the civilian shops just flew all the required hours for a guy, got the money, and moved to the next warm body. Turns out the private sector is mostly motivated by money -who knew?

And remind me again why civilian ah-initio programs are a good idea?

Richman

 

[Boris Badenov]

Go on, someone raise your hand. I dare you.

 

[hook_dupin]

And remind me again why civilian ah-initio programs are a good idea?

Richman

The current USAF flight screening program is run by a contractor (a single contractor vice a very ad-hoc group of mom and pop flight schools). I'm told it's working out well. The trick is to have it so that the contractor makes money by evaluating candidates and not by flying more airplane hours. If it were me running the show, I would give the contractor a bonus for both improving UPT wash-out rate and feeding enough pilot candidates into UPT.

The ab-initio programs work well in other industries. Look at electrician apprentices or medical residencies. I think its really a cost vs. long-term-value question. For all the complaints about the European-style ab-initio programs, there really aren't any differences in safety rates between all the US and European carriers.

 

[Hacker15e]

If it were me running the show, I would give the contractor a bonus for both improving UPT wash-out rate and feeding enough pilot candidates into UPT.

When I was a UPT IP, I was in charge of managing graduated students and one of my jobs was feedback to Doss about who graduated and who didn't, as well as tracking the progress of my unit's graduates in their follow-on training.

Several levels of AETC training have their effectiveness partly yardsticked by their graduates' performance in follow-on training.

 

[av8tr1]

And remind me again why civilian ah-initio programs are a good idea?

Richman

If managed properly the private sector can do a great job. The problem is the government is a historically bad manager and people take advantage of that. There are many fine examples of the private sector doing better than Uncle Sam. But private sector exists to make money not out of the goodness of its heart. Nothing wrong with that.

As Dupin pointed out, with proper incentives and management private sector can work really well.

 

[Springer]

When I was a UPT IP, I was in charge of managing graduated students and one of my jobs was feedback to Doss about who graduated and who didn't, as well as tracking the progress of my unit's graduates in their follow-on training.

Several levels of AETC training have their effectiveness partly yardsticked by their graduates' performance in follow-on training.

Sounds like a good program Hacker. When I was a Flt Commander I called my guys' UPT IP's for input. They all said it was the first time anyone called from an operational squadron.

 

[Ian_J]

500 feet?

Weak sauce.

The 500 knots part might wake you up...

 

[USMCmech]

... These screening programs (once called LATR, then FSP, then EFSP) were required attendance for every student pilot, regardless of experience.
.....
Now, they've gone full circle and screening is back consolidated at one AF-run location in Pueblo, they can do that screening while simulating the SUPT environment.

When I was flying in SAT, I worked with a CFI who got a job teaching at IFS shortly after I moved away. A few years later, he got picked up for a Guard C-5 slot. He had to go through IFS as a student with some of the instructors who had been his coworkers a few months earlier.

 

[///AMG]

Every TMS/MDS has their difficult regimes of flight, whether tactically or otherwise. And you have great aviators, poor aviators, and everywhere in between in every community. Multipiloted aircraft allow a guy/gal the luxury of learning until the lightbulb goes off.