Envoy Military RW Transition program

Flyinthrew said:
The tough part is that the helo guy is going to exit the military making 90-110k/year so that's a pretty big haircut.
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Pretty much every military pilot who goes to the airlines is going to take a first or second year pay cut, even going direct to the major leagues.

Everyone should have a financial exit plan for that.
 
Blackhawk said:
Even on the military side some RW airframes are not IFR capable and instrument training is an afterthought. My airline has had training issues with some -58 and -64 pilots.
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Not just that, but going from a lifetime of thinking at 2 miles/minute, to now thinking at ~8 miles/minute.

Going the other way was definitely easier. :D
 
MikeD said:
Not just that, but going from a lifetime of thinking at 2 miles/minute, to now thinking at ~8 miles/minute.

Going the other way was definitely easier. :D
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Even watching Hawg....


"You call that NOE?.... Wuss."




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MikeD said:
Not just that, but going from a lifetime of thinking at 2 miles/minute, to now thinking at ~8 miles/minute.

Going the other way was definitely easier. :D
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8 miles a minute at the flight levels? Meh. In the terminal area they're all doing Baron speeds anyway.
 
MikeFavinger said:
8 miles a minute at the flight levels? Meh. In the terminal area they're all doing Baron speeds anyway.
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I sure hope a Barron is not using a Vref of 140 KTS. If so the pilot needs some remedial training.

Probably the biggest issue for those making the transition is being able to maintain a precise Vref (+10/-0), on the approach w/ Vref on the dot across the numbers.
 
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Lawman said:
Even watching Hawg....


"You call that NOE?.... Wuss."
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Hell, I thought I flew low in the Hog. Being on range at a Red Flag and having a German Tornado IDS egressing lower than me, was a sight to see.

Of course, only a few nights later, one of theirs packed it in on a night, extreme low-level, threat reaction into the ground, morting the two crew.

Reminds me of our old time-to-die charts for various pitch angles below the horizon and bank angle combos, combined with speeds. Many combos were just a few seconds.
 
Blackhawk said:
I sure hope a Barron is not using a Vref of 140 KTS. If so the pilot needs some remedial training.

Probably the biggest issue for those making the transition is being able to maintain a precise Vref (+10/-0), on the approach w/ Vref on the dot across the numbers.
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Mostly just playing around with my post, but at my former 135 shop is was 150 at the marker/ 5NM and a progressive decel until the threshold.
 
MikeFavinger said:
Mostly just playing around with my post, but at my former 135 shop is was 150 at the marker/ 5NM and a progressive decel until the threshold.
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In what? A Baron with a max landing weight of 5,400 lbs? It's that old physics thingy. F=ma. At 50,000 lbs plus being a few knots fast results in quite a bit more force that must be dissipated during the landing phase. One of the reason runway over runs can be an issue in large turbofan aircraft.
 
Blackhawk said:
In what? A Baron with a max landing weight of 5,400 lbs? It's that old physics thingy. F=ma. At 50,000 lbs plus being a few knots fast results in quite a bit more force that must be dissipated during the landing phase. One of the reason runway over runs can be an issue in large turbofan aircraft.
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Never mind, man. I'm just BSing here... haven't done that for a while at JC - now I remember why. I'm not seriously trying to argue any point.
 
MikeFavinger said:
Never mind, man. I'm just BSing here... haven't done that for a while at JC - now I remember why. I'm not seriously trying to argue any point.
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Just make sure if you cross the numbers at Vle you pull the flaps up in the flare to limit float. Safety first you know.
 
MikeD said:
Hell, I thought I flew low in the Hog. Being on range at a Red Flag and having a German Tornado IDS egressing lower than me, was a sight to see.

Of course, only a few nights later, one of theirs packed it in on a night, extreme low-level, threat reaction into the ground, morting the two crew.

Reminds me of our old time-to-die charts for various pitch angles below the horizon and bank angle combos, combined with speeds. Many combos were just a few seconds.
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Isn't that how the A-6E on night one of Desert Storm augured in over Bubiyan Island? Same for the F-111 in El Dorado Canyon? Or were those actual ADA/SAM losses? Going that low at night doesn't allow for much margin in terms of threat reactions I'd imagine.
 
///AMG said:
Isn't that how the A-6E on night one of Desert Storm augured in over Bubiyan Island? Same for the F-111 in El Dorado Canyon? Or were those actual ADA/SAM losses? Going that low at night doesn't allow for much margin in terms of threat reactions I'd imagine.
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Both losses were attributed to AAA, whether a hit or a threat reaction to it, is unknown. The VA-36 A-6E was reportedly hit by AAA while in the area of the island, ingress if I remember. And Karma 52, the F-111F was ingressing the target when it was assessed to have been hit by AAA, however unknown whether that was targeted or they ran into barrage-type fire. Personally, I think that's a guess, as it could've been a threat reaction into the water too; as all that was seen by other F-111s in the flight was the explosion on the water and nothing else.

It's notable in Karma 52s loss, that going in low was due to the need to stay under the radars, even though the USN was performing SEAD for them with A-6E and A-7Es off the coast, and EF-111As were also providing SEAD via jamming (EF-111As are unarmed). The missio would've been a good one for the F-117A, however the combatant commands didn't know of the existance of the F-117A even though they'd been operational and mission capable for at least 3+ years by that time, but were still a black program.

But indeed, threat reactions at night leave little to no room for error, much little to no room for maneuvering.

Granted, no F-111E/Fs were lost in Desert Storm, but when A-6E units went to medium altitude during their night employments, their damage/losses went down significantly. And even though they were LGB capable, the VA units were primarily only employing dumb bombs in their strikes. Only "usual" LGB droppers in Desert Storm were F-117, F-15E, and F-111F units. Others were only dropping LGBs sparingly, or not at all. F-16 at the time, wasn't LGB capable from a self-lasing standpoint.
 
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About time an airline recognized us RW guys. Its always been a fantasy of mine to fly an RJ from Dallas to Portland at 50 AGL'

On a side note I just shot my first ILS since 2002 last week in a new AH-64E. It was pretty wild. Hoping to log some actual weather soon as well.
 
MikeD said:
Both losses were attributed to AAA, whether a hit or a threat reaction to it, is unknown. The VA-36 A-6E was reportedly hit by AAA while in the area of the island, ingress if I remember. And Karma 52, the F-111F was ingressing the target when it was assessed to have been hit by AAA, however unknown whether that was targeted or they ran into barrage-type fire. Personally, I think that's a guess, as it could've been a threat reaction into the water too; as all that was seen by other F-111s in the flight was the explosion on the water and nothing else.

It's notable in Karma 52s loss, that going in low was due to the need to stay under the radars, even though the USN was performing SEAD for them with A-6E and A-7Es off the coast, and EF-111As were also providing SEAD via jamming (EF-111As are unarmed). The missio would've been a good one for the F-117A, however the combatant commands didn't know of the existance of the F-117A even though they'd been operational and mission capable for at least 3+ years by that time, but were still a black program.

But indeed, threat reactions at night leave little to no room for error, much little to no room for maneuvering.

Granted, no F-111E/Fs were lost in Desert Storm, but when A-6E units went to medium altitude during their night employments, their damage/losses went down significantly. And even though they were LGB capable, the VA units were primarily only employing dumb bombs in their strikes. Only "usual" LGB droppers in Desert Storm were F-117, F-15E, and F-111F units. Others were only dropping LGBs sparingly, or not at all. F-16 at the time, wasn't LGB capable from a self-lasing standpoint.
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Also a point of note. That timeframe predates the widespread adoption of NVG or FLIR systems so spacial D was far easier to get into especially in non HUD equipped aircraft.

We had similar issues in the time frame with helicopters running into the featureless desert in red illumination levels because there was no discernible horizon. Another 60 actually crashed due to the reflection of the urban terrestrial lighting reflecting off a lake and effectively distorting their interpretation of the horizon and the crew flying into the water.




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Would love to hear any stories from people making this transition. Also how far out from the end of your service obligation you started making contact and applying for it.
 
This could be pretty awesome. I could leave the military in two years at 38 with retirement and start on a second career.

This is damn tempting.
 
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