A "Duh" Moment. It's Official — MH17 Downed by Russian-Made Missile

Cherokee_Cruiser said:
On 14 July 2014, a Ukrainian Air Force An-26 transport plane flying at 6,500 m (21,300 ft) was shot down.


Sorry it was July 14. Nark, did you have a point regarding.....?

I'm basing what I wrote just on what IIRC from the news regarding MH17. Talks of shoulder launched weapons and ground-based vehicle / surface to air missile sites. Please correct me if I'm wrong. My understanding is the shoulder launched types are good for up to 10k-15k. And that higher ones (FL200+) are more advanced shot from ground sites. It would jive with when I was at Evergreen and the guys talked about their procedures out of Afghanistan called for getting above 10k ASAP. Please correct me. I'd like to know just how high a threat a shoulder launch type missile would be versus those of ground based radar-type sites or vehicles.

I guessed about Iraq's capability. If there really are sites/vehicles that can launch missiles into the Flight Levels, Iraqi airspace should be closed. If I am a CA of an airliner and a country has a war with the proven capability to launch a missile into the Flight Levels, I'd refuse that flight plan and go around that country in question.

But lucky me, I'm a domestic pilot. The only war zone I fly over is Chicago, and I'm safe from the small arms gunfire.
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How, as captain, do you know you're flight plan is over an active war zone? Do you know where all of those war zones are? It's extremely difficult to know exactly who's at war. Are you going to avoid going to Tel Aviv? Technically not a war zone I don't think, but you'd better know the exact procedures to get into their airspace. Where in the Middle East is there peace right now? How are you going to get to India?

I've been to some pretty unfriendly places, and you saying you'd just avoid it is either ignorant or disingenuous. Just keep in mind there are some not so nice places in the world right now.

I'm not saying just fly wherever you want. I am saying we have to go by the information given to us. At the time of the shoot down, most airlines were using the corridor that MH17 was using.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
On 14 July 2014, a Ukrainian Air Force An-26 transport plane flying at 6,500 m (21,300 ft) was shot down.


Sorry it was July 14. Nark, did you have a point regarding.....?

I'm basing what I wrote just on what IIRC from the news regarding MH17. Talks of shoulder launched weapons and ground-based vehicle / surface to air missile sites. Please correct me if I'm wrong. My understanding is the shoulder launched types are good for up to 10k-15k. And that higher ones (FL200+) are more advanced shot from ground sites. It would jive with when I was at Evergreen and the guys talked about their procedures out of Afghanistan called for getting above 10k ASAP. Please correct me. I'd like to know just how high a threat a shoulder launch type missile would be versus those of ground based radar-type sites or vehicles.

I guessed about Iraq's capability. If there really are sites/vehicles that can launch missiles into the Flight Levels, Iraqi airspace should be closed. If I am a CA of an airliner and a country has a war with the proven capability to launch a missile into the Flight Levels, I'd refuse that flight plan and go around that country in question.

But lucky me, I'm a domestic pilot. The only war zone I fly over is Chicago, and I'm safe from the small arms gunfire.
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You do know who controls Iraqi airspace, yes?

Next time you're talking to "George Washington Center", you might not be in the US.
 
Stone Cold said:
I'm not saying just fly wherever you want. I am saying we have to go by the information given to us. At the time of the shoot down, most airlines were using the corridor that MH17 was using.
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Yup. I've been through there a crap ton, even around the time of the well, since you're probably in Russia now, the "Grand Disagreement".

I've eaten the Indian Selection watching the sun set over Tehran flying toward India. Been waking up off break hearing people "cleared in tactical down the Boulevard" in Iraq. Hell I might have been talking to Karachi on their crappy HF during the Bin Laden raid.

Some nights, we'd get bored and turn off the storm lights to look for flashes in some of the boxes.

And Africa. Hell, between dodging air pirates running guns and drugs without a transponder in the flight levels to "where the deuce are we", you're usually over somewhere you really don't want to land if you divert.
 
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Stone Cold said:
How, as captain, do you know you're flight plan is over an active war zone? Do you know where all of those war zones are? It's extremely difficult to know exactly who's at war. Are you going to avoid going to Tel Aviv? Technically not a war zone I don't think, but you'd better know the exact procedures to get into their airspace. Where in the Middle East is there peace right now? How are you going to get to India?

I've been to some pretty unfriendly places, and you saying you'd just avoid it is either ignorant or disingenuous. Just keep in mind there are some not so nice places in the world right now.

I'm not saying just fly wherever you want. I am saying we have to go by the information given to us. At the time of the shoot down, most airlines were using the corridor that MH17 was using.
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To be fair I did state countries with a proven capability of using missiles in the Flight Levels. I should clarify to mean skirmishes between two groups in which they are actively shooting down other airplanes (which had already happened numerous times in Ukraine right before MH17). Lets be honest, planes are not being shot down in Israel and Palestine, or even Pakistan and India.

I was born in a "unfriendly" place ;) I can probably fit in a lot of countries that the average westerner may not have the advantage of.

This year for vacation we did Vienna, Austria and Madrid, Spain. I specifically avoided London and Paris. I hope it doesn't make me ignorant or disingenuous. I'll go to those two places once things settle down a bit.
 
Derg said:
You do know who controls Iraqi airspace, yes?

Next time you're talking to "George Washington Center", you might not be in the US.
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All the more reason I would think that George Washington center would call in any missile launch activity, especially when said site could launch into the Flight Levels. Use a drone to take 'em out!

And Africa. Hell, between dodging air pirates running guns and drugs without a transponder in the flight levels
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That happens even today? Yikes :aghast:
 
Madrid's been kinda quiet :)


And to be clear though, we are saying that Iraq has surface-to-air capabilities right now at the hands of extremists who can launch them into the Flight Levels, and that airspace is controlled by the US, and open for traffic for all the foreign airlines that fly above Iraqi airspace? If so, then that needs to be changed.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Madrid's been kinda quiet :)


And to be clear though, we are saying that Iraq has surface-to-air capabilities right now at the hands of extremists who can launch them into the Flight Levels, and that airspace is controlled by the US, and open for traffic for all the foreign airlines that fly above Iraqi airspace? If so, then that needs to be changed.
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Oh bless your little heart. The flight levels begin as low as 2500' around here. I'm not sure what the TA is in Iraq but most places don't wait until 18,000' for transition. :cool: So since that's the case, I'm sure something can reach the flight levels. ;)
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Madrid's been kinda quiet :)


And to be clear though, we are saying that Iraq has surface-to-air capabilities right now at the hands of extremists who can launch them into the Flight Levels, and that airspace is controlled by the US, and open for traffic for all the foreign airlines that fly above Iraqi airspace? If so, then that needs to be changed.
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I have to admit a certain kind of admiration. Despite the input from people with access to government intelligence and operational backgrounds in these areas, pilots currently flying in the exact airspace you're talking about, and a complete lack of experience on your part with regard to these territories and operations you continue to doggedly push forward your opinion. Points for determination and consistency.
 
Stone Cold said:
Oh bless your little heart. The flight levels begin as low as 2500' around here. I'm not sure what the TA is in Iraq but most places don't wait until 18,000' for transition. :cool: So since that's the case, I'm sure something can reach the flight levels. ;)
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Maybe it's generational! :)

I remember that day when the epiphany came that, "Fascinating. The more I know, the more I realize how much I DON'T know, and that's awwwwww'right alright alright!"
 
"Flight control? Is this desk 46? Yeah, I'm the CAPTAIN on flight six, I WILL NOT FLY OVER A WAR ZONE and I need about 30,000 extra pounds of gas and perhaps the gulf route. Wait. Nah put us over the 'Stans toward Pak…wait…. crap. How about we go the polar route, the long way around and… crap…"
 
Derg said:
Maybe it's generational! :)

I remember that day when the epiphany came that, "Fascinating. The more I know, the more I realize how much I DON'T know, and that's awwwwww'right alright alright!"
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Yep, there's a whole other world outside the US. I just flew to Europe where the government almost collapsed (Greece) and flew over Turkey (where they had a coup attempt a few months ago...I'm pretty sure they have missiles into the flight levels there. I think they even shot down a Russian fighter within the last year). I also skirted Ukrainian airspace in the corridor with all the airlines. Too bad I'm pnf. I would have said no way to that flying as pf. :D
 
milleR said:
I have to admit a certain kind of admiration. Despite the input from people with access to government intelligence and operational backgrounds in these areas, pilots currently flying in the exact airspace you're talking about, and a complete lack of experience on your part with regard to these territories and operations you continue to doggedly push forward your opinion. Points for determination and consistency.
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Oh it's not just this thread...........it's every subject and every thread.
clueless.gif
 
Stone Cold said:
Yep, there's a whole other world outside the US. I just flew to Europe where the government almost collapsed (Greece) and flew over Turkey (where they had a coup attempt a few months ago...I'm pretty sure they have missiles into the flight levels there. I think they even shot down a Russian fighter within the last year). I also skirted Ukrainian airspace in the corridor with all the airlines. Too bad I'm pnf. I would have said no way to that flying as pf. :D
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Egads!

Had I have known not to fly over Nicosia enroute to TLV earlier, I wouldn't have put our crew at risk!
 
More power to you guys flying around with no signature suppression and no expendables.

I know I don't do it. And given the information I'm privy to Insure as hell don't want to.


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Lawman said:
More power to you guys flying around with no signature suppression and no expendables.

I know I don't do it. And given the information I'm privy to Insure as hell don't want to.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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That leaves a ton of the world you will never visit then. All the airlines are flying in the same airspace I am. It's a calculated risk, as is all flying.

Just because my bosses are who they are puts a little target on us. Any HVC is going to have enemies. At least it's not like Kiev where it was verified the boss was in the Russian mafia at one time.

Airlines are the same way. The very bad guys would love to take more of them out in dramatic fashion. How isolated, as a pilot, are you going to be?
 
Stone Cold said:
That leaves a ton of the world you will never visit then. All the airlines are flying in the same airspace I am. It's a calculated risk, as is all flying.

Just because my bosses are who they are puts a little target on us. Any HVC is going to have enemies. At least it's not like Kiev where it was verified the boss was in the Russian mafia at one time.

Airlines are the same way. The very bad guys would love to take more of them out in dramatic fashion. How isolated, as a pilot, are you going to be?
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I'm speaking to Iraq/Syria specifically.

There's a lot of areas of bad non state actors, or able capabilities in systems that are both owned and trained... very few of those line up to mix the two variables. That place they sure as hell do.




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Lawman said:
I'm speaking to Iraq/Syria specifically.

There's a lot of areas of bad non state actors, or able capabilities in systems that are both owned and trained... very few of those line up to mix the two variables. That place they sure as hell do.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Ah gotcha. Luckily, these bosses don't go to Syria. My last time there was 2010.

I have never had to fly over Iraq, so I'll leave that discussion to the airline guys. I have been over Iran numerous times, and even used to visit quite regularly.
 
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