A "Duh" Moment. It's Official — MH17 Downed by Russian-Made Missile

The title is inaccurate. Everybody agrees it was a Russian built missile. The new claim is that it was one from the Russian military, rather than a system that had been sold to or orphaned in the Ukraine, and possibly captured.
 
NickH said:
The title is inaccurate. Everybody agrees it was a Russian built missile. The new claim is that it was one from the Russian military, rather than a system that had been sold to or orphaned in the Ukraine, and possibly captured.
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Listening to the BBC this afternoon, they talked about how it was "on loan" to the separatists and then swiftly "returned" during the investigation.

I have extreme difficulty imagining an "orphaned" SAM in the Ukraine being hastily returned to the Russians.

I'm not sure that dog hunts.

Yeah, I know Americas hands aren't clean because we did a number on a Iran Air 737 back in the day.
 
NickH said:
The title is inaccurate. Everybody agrees it was a Russian built missile. The new claim is that it was one from the Russian military, rather than a system that had been sold to or orphaned in the Ukraine, and possibly captured.
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Or simply given from the Russian Army to the Separatists as was first reported/contended (with videos, still photographs and witnesses) clear back in July of 2014.
 
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Or had Russian army personnel using it as Facebook posts and geo-tagged photos from a Russian Buk crewman matched up with the movements of the one witnessed crossing the border (twice, the second time less one missile).

My personal theory, and this is based off the intercepted radio transmissions, is that yes, the Russians/separatists shot it down. Yes, it was a tragic accident and they believed they were firing at a Ukrainian reconnaissance aircraft. Yes they were shocked and remorseful when they realized what they had done. But the Russian government can never make a mistake and will carry a lie/coverup to the grave. It's just too etched into their DNA from Soviet times. I mean hell the Soviet pilot who shot down KAL007 still insists it was a recon plane (although that probably has more to do with living with oneself than anything else)
 
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A Life Aloft said:
Or simply given from the Russian Army to the Separatists as was first reported/contended (with videos, still photographs and witnesses) clear back in July of 2014.
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You do not just "figure out" how to make an SA-11 work, much less successfully engage aircraft with it.

Even the most user friendly versions of these systems require specialized training.

We aren't talking about an Afghan with a couple hours show-me/talk-me instruction and a Stinger.... This is a multimillion dollar piece of hardware designed to operate in an integrated air defense system.
 
Lawman said:
You do not just "figure out" how to make an SA-11 work, much less successfully engage aircraft with it.

Even the most user friendly versions of these systems require specialized training.

We aren't talking about an Afghan with a couple hours show-me/talk-me instruction and a Stinger.... This is a multimillion dollar piece of hardware designed to operate in an integrated air defense system.
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I am not saying that anyone from the Russian Army was not there with the Separatists, was not working/cooperating with the Separatists and that members of the Russian Army were not operating the system. In fact, I believe that they were/did. And, I have felt this way for over two years now.
 
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A Life Aloft said:
I am not saying that anyone from the Russian Army was not there with the Separatists operating the system. In fact, I believe that they were.
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Yeah but that sure isn't the lie the Russians are selling.

First it was "it was a Ukrainian SAM" which might have worked if we hadn't tracked telemetry for a point of origin, correlated recon photos of said stashed, and most importantly found evidence of a particular warhead effect the Ukrainian BUK can't do...

Now suddenly it's "must be the rebels."

I'll give the Russians (old soviet) strategy one thing. When those guys commit to the lie they really commit to the lie.


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Lawman said:
Yeah but that sure isn't the lie the Russians are selling.

First it was "it was a Ukrainian SAM" which might have worked if we hadn't tracked telemetry for a point of origin, correlated recon photos of said stashed, and most importantly found evidence of a particular warhead effect the Ukrainian BUK can't do...

Now suddenly it's "must be the rebels."

I'll give the Russians (old soviet) strategy one thing. When those guys commit to the lie they really commit to the lie.


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Don't forget about the Ukrainian SU-25 theory they put forward, with doctored "satellite" (Google maps) images and all.
 
Lawman said:
Yeah but that sure isn't the lie the Russians are selling.

First it was "it was a Ukrainian SAM" which might have worked if we hadn't tracked telemetry for a point of origin, correlated recon photos of said stashed, and most importantly found evidence of a particular warhead effect the Ukrainian BUK can't do...

Now suddenly it's "must be the rebels."

I'll give the Russians (old soviet) strategy one thing. When those guys commit to the lie they really commit to the lie.


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Deflection and b.s. stories go hand in hand with the Russians. Always have. I also believe that they went with Putin's direct orders/blessing. These were not some rogue Army soldiers out for some fun while hanging out by the border or who decided to take matters into their own hands or who were ordered by some Army Officer who cooked up this idea on his own. It came from the Kremlin.
 
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My only question is, from the families' perspective, what sort of justice can anyone see/expect?

I saw that Malaysian Airlines settled financially with most of the family members of MH17. Russia should have to bear that cost 100%. But who in the end will be held responsible for the shootdown? Where's the justice?
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
My only question is, from the families' perspective, what sort of justice can anyone see/expect?

I saw that Malaysian Airlines settled financially with most of the family members of MH17. Russia should have to bear that cost 100%. But who in the end will be held responsible for the shootdown? Where's the justice?
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They aren't gonna get a damn thing.

You can sue another country in some international court and it will mean nothing.

Short of Russia coming out, accepting blame, and paying money (like we do whenever this stuff happens) those people will get nothing.


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Lawman said:
They aren't gonna get a damn thing.

You can sue another country in some international court and it will mean nothing.

Short of Russia coming out, accepting blame, and paying money (like we do whenever this stuff happens) those people will get nothing.


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Except for b.s., subterfuge, and lies. Pretty much what they have gotten all along thus far. Putin wouldn't/won't even bother to hang it on someone and make them take the fall for it. He washed his hands of the incident as soon as it was confirmed that his idiot soldiers had shot down a passenger jet.
 
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