My Son Wants To Fly

Understand that buying an airplane just to learn in is a pretty big gamble. Of anything goes wrong, you are on the hook to fix it. If you are renting and it has a mechanical issue, you walk away from it unscathed. If you are a member of a club, that's what club fee's are for, and you only pay a small portion of the repairs.

Unless you have deep pockets, I'd stay away from buying to learn.
 
alaskadrifter said:
Learn the ways of Barnstormers and Craigslist. A Cherokee 140 can be had for a reasonable price (mid $20k) and would be great for ppl, inst, xc time building, night time, etc. would still need to rent a multi and complex.
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What do you think about the year to look for? How much better is instrumentation between planes built in the 60s, 70s, and 80s?
 
mshunter said:
Understand that buying an airplane just to learn in is a pretty big gamble. Of anything goes wrong, you are on the hook to fix it. If you are renting and it has a mechanical issue, you walk away from it unscathed. If you are a member of a club, that's what club fee's are for, and you only pay a small portion of the repairs.

Unless you have deep pockets, I'd stay away from buying to learn.
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I certainly don't have deep pockets but I guess it depends on each persons meaning of that. Some people thing if you have 10k in the bank you are rich and some people think if you have 100k in the bank you are broke. I have read many posts and blogs by people who are middle class and bought a plane. I realize at any time you may have unexpected repairs but that goes for your car or house too. Nobody expects a tree to fall on their roof. The reason I'm considering it is the cost of a plane and independent training could be the same as flight school and when you are done you have a plane at the same cost. Also when my son is done he can train me for free.
 
Jimmyfly said:
I certainly don't have deep pockets but I guess it depends on each persons meaning of that. Some people thing if you have 10k in the bank you are rich and some people think if you have 100k in the bank you are broke. I have read many posts and blogs by people who are middle class and bought a plane. I realize at any time you may have unexpected repairs but that goes for your car or house too. Nobody expects a tree to fall on their roof. The reason I'm considering it is the cost of a plane and independent training could be the same as flight school and when you are done you have a plane at the same cost. Also when my son is done he can train me for free.
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The difference being, that engine replacement will cost 3x as much with an airplane. Now imagine that repair coming at an annual inspection, where they find you need an engine overhaul as well as the annual inspection. It's not necessarily a bad idea, especially if you plan on keeping whatever you buy. The risk is in the short term investment, and hoping that an expensive piece of equipment on the airplane doesn't fail. For a "toy," hell yes an airplane makes sense. For a short term learn to fly with? It could make sense, as long as like I said, nothing major breaks.
 
mshunter said:
The difference being, that engine replacement will cost 3x as much with an airplane. Now imagine that repair coming at an annual inspection, where they find you need an engine overhaul as well as the annual inspection. It's not necessarily a bad idea, especially if you plan on keeping whatever you buy. The risk is in the short term investment, and hoping that an expensive piece of equipment on the airplane doesn't fail. For a "toy," hell yes an airplane makes sense. For a short term learn to fly with? It could make sense, as long as like I said, nothing major breaks.
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3x? I don't even think you can get an O320 done for under $20k anymore at least it you want it more than hauled over from the receiving shelf to the paint booth.
 
Hangar isn't necessary, insurance isn't necessary, but a good A&P can be hard to find. Find one that will let you do what you can yourself. I don't know if many Cessnas or Pipers from the 60s-80s have original avionics in them. A Pacer/Tripacer is a good buy, if you don't need an electrical system a Taylorcraft is about as affordable as it gets. @Roger Roger @z987k have had dealings with aircraft ownership too. Planes aren't great short term investments, but long term they can be a great asset with many lifetime memories as dividends.
 
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Roger Roger said:
3x? I don't even think you can get an O320 done for under $20k anymore at least it you want it more than hauled over from the receiving shelf to the paint booth.
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Average overhauled auto engine is about $5k, not installed. An O-320 overhauled can be as had for about $15k.
 
mshunter said:
Here are two good articles I read that do a fairly decent job of what I'm trying to convey.

http://www.planeandpilotmag.com/article/buy-to-fly/#.V9sH43MpDqA

http://www.flightinstructorjoe.com/buy-or-rent-a-plane/
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I am definitely going to read both of these articles, and probably many more, and I do understand what you are saying however 3x the price of the plane is confusing me. I have seen a number of planes priced between 20k and 50k, which is probably going to be my price range, and I thought an engine overhaul was in the 15k to 20k range. Also I am thinking more about buying the plane for the long haul. As I said besides my son using it for training I would like to get a private and keep it for recreational use. Obviously I would need to plan on the cost of the yearly inspection and engine overhaul every 2000 miles or whatever the time frame is for that model plane. I guess the goal is to find a plane in good condition that has had a recent overhaul and is not too pricey. What everyone is looking for I would guess.
 
alaskadrifter said:
Hangar isn't necessary, insurance isn't necessary, but a good A&P can be hard to find. Find one that will let you do what you can yourself. I don't know if many Cessnas or Pipers from the 60s-80s have original avionics in them. A Pacer/Tripacer is a good buy, if you don't need an electrical system a Taylorcraft is about as affordable as it gets. @Roger Roger @z987k have had dealings with aircraft ownership too. Planes aren't great short term investments, but long term they can be a great asset with many lifetime memories as dividends.
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Ah a good mechanic yes. I have a great mechanic for my cars that I have known for 20 years and would love to get lucky and find a good one for a plane as well. When I get closer to a purchase I definitely will look. What about having a mechanic help you in the buying process? Is that something people do? I would think before buying you would want a mechanic to look over a plane and give you an opinion.
 
z987k said:
100% about priorities. If you can afford a 30k car, you can more than afford an airplane. He does need an IFR airplane with semi-modern avionics, and that will increase the purchase price.
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So what year did most Cessna and Pipers start equipping with modern avionics? That's probably my biggest question now is what year plane to look for. Can't afford recently new of course but don't want a wright brothers model either.
 
z987k said:
No one cares where you did flight training.(Because it couldn't be more irrelevant) If your son has a pulse and an ATP certificate he'll be hired by a region in about 3 seconds.
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Oh and another question is if you get your training privately how hard is it then to get a CFI job to build your hours? Are places that didn't train you reluctant to hire you as a CFI? With everyone needing 1500 hours to get to a regional aren't there a lot of CFIs out there competing for jobs and clients? Also how do you get your ground school and simulator training when you are hiring your own CFI and not attending a flight school?
 
Jimmyfly said:
So what year did most Cessna and Pipers start equipping with modern avionics? That's probably my biggest question now is what year plane to look for. Can't afford recently new of course but don't want a wright brothers model either.
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You're not going to find anything in your price range with original equipment that is IFR. Avionics can be and are upgraded in even the oldest airplanes. That is such a fundamental basic question, that anyone even considering an airplane should know.... you really need to find someone to help you through this if that is the route you take. The internet is not sufficient.

And it may have changed since I did my training, but you don't need simulator training. It just generally reduces the costs. "Ground school" is done with your CFI. There's no classroom specific setting requirements.
 
Jimmyfly said:
Oh and another question is if you get your training privately how hard is it then to get a CFI job to build your hours? Are places that didn't train you reluctant to hire you as a CFI? With everyone needing 1500 hours to get to a regional aren't there a lot of CFIs out there competing for jobs and clients? Also how do you get your ground school and simulator training when you are hiring your own CFI and not attending a flight school?
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If your son is willing to move, he will have no problem finding a decent paying CFI job. Schools in Arizona, Texas, and Florida are desperate to hire CFIs.

There are also many ways to get to that magic 1500 hour mark. I personally went the CFI, aerial survey, charter first officer, and then airline first officer. If you're open and flexible about employment, many jobs will be available.
 
Jimmyfly said:
3x the price of the plane is confusing me. I have seen a number of planes priced between 20k and 50k, which is probably going to be my price range, and I thought an engine overhaul was in the 15k to 20k range.I guess the goal is to find a plane in good condition that has had a recent overhaul and is not too pricey.
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MSHUNTER was saying an airplane engine is 3X the cost of a car engine, not 3X the cost of an airplane. Be wary of a "Fresh" over haul especially if it is not a reputable shop.

Jimmyfly said:
So what year did most Cessna and Pipers start equipping with modern avionics?
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Many older airplanes have been updated at least once. Older panels often look like a hybrid between the Wright flyer and an F-22. Meaning there is a mix of very old and very new avionics.

Jimmyfly said:
Oh and another question is if you get your training privately how hard is it then to get a CFI job to build your hours? Also how do you get your ground school and simulator training when you are hiring your own CFI and not attending a flight school?
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There are plenty of CFI jobs at the moment. I don't remember reading where you are located but unless it is someplace like Jost Van Dyke he won't have a problem finding CFI work. I frequently get asked if I want to instruct and I am pitifully out of recency. This could change overnight but at the moment things are good. A simulator is a benefit (time and cost) during instrument training. But you can go from 0 hours to CFI never having used one. Many people self study for the ground school but his CFI would (should) still do some ground with every flight lesson.
 
Jimmyfly said:
Ah a good mechanic yes. I have a great mechanic for my cars that I have known for 20 years and would love to get lucky and find a good one for a plane as well. When I get closer to a purchase I definitely will look. What about having a mechanic help you in the buying process? Is that something people do? I would think before buying you would want a mechanic to look over a plane and give you an opinion.
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Yes, I would even say it's necessary.
 
z987k said:
You're not going to find anything in your price range with original equipment that is IFR. Avionics can be and are upgraded in even the oldest airplanes. That is such a fundamental basic question, that anyone even considering an airplane should know.... you really need to find someone to help you through this if that is the route you take. The internet is not sufficient.

And it may have changed since I did my training, but you don't need simulator training. It just generally reduces the costs. "Ground school" is done with your CFI. There's no classroom specific setting requirements.
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Thank you. I appreciate your candid responses because it really helps to know the truth. I know that older planes usually get upgraded with modern avionics but I was just wondering when these things became standard. I also have thought the same thing about getting help in choosing a plane. All I need to do is meet a good airplane mechanic I guess.
 
Finny said:
If your son is willing to move, he will have no problem finding a decent paying CFI job. Schools in Arizona, Texas, and Florida are desperate to hire CFIs.

There are also many ways to get to that magic 1500 hour mark. I personally went the CFI, aerial survey, charter first officer, and then airline first officer. If you're open and flexible about employment, many jobs will be available.
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Yea I figured there are probably more recreational pilots getting their training in the warm sunny areas. Hey no problem with going to Arizona. I'm ready right now and I'm sure he would be fine with that. Florida just too damn humid in the summer for me but if he wants to go there he can count on me visiting between October and May. Once he is CFI he has a guaranteed 250 hours because he is going to be training me. If I kick out money for a plane I better get something out of the deal right?
 
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