Delta vs UPS TA video

ian said:
not to mention since we only have so few 777s those guys will be wishing the 330/350 paid the 777 rate when they go away.....care to give us a history lesson @Seggy ?
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It's called the "widebody footprint".

From what I'm told, folks are actually starting to factor it into which major they decide to go to...

Richman
 
Richman said:
It's called the "widebody footprint".

From what I'm told, folks are actually starting to factor it into which major they decide to go to...

Richman
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as much as i hate to admit it, i know of at least 10 people that have already left or will leave us if @Seggy 's shop calls. It pains me to admit something to him
 
Richman said:
The argument goes:

Let's say you have 9 airplane types, and each pays a different rate. Let's also say you are thinking about going to banding, and want to have 3 airplanes in each of 3 bands.

This assumes everyone is content with the staffing aspect of pay banding. The theory goes that people jump airplanes for money; and this causes training churn, which makes pilots unavailable. By eliminating the churn somewhat, you effectively increase productivity. If you are getting a raise out of the deal, it becomes a "pay for jobs" discussion.

So now we implement the banding as part of a PWA. You set up your pay bands and dollop a 10% raise on the highest rate in your new band, and each aircraft in each band "snaps up" to the highest rate in each band.

Everyone's happy, right?

Wrong.

The pilots already on the highest paying equipment in each band get a 10% raise. Good news, right?

But the pilots in the formerly lower paying aircraft in the new pay bands get a "bigger raise" because their pay snaps to the highest in each band. They get the pay bump to the highest AND get the 10% raise.

"Not fair". "Your choosing winners and losers!" are some comments, in addition to those who are opposed on the staffing issue.

Getting the 10% raise isn't the issue. The issue is that a large group of pilots in each band are getting bigger "raises". If it's one thing a pilot hates worse than a good deal, and that's someone else getting a better deal, even if that "better deal" is making the same money.

When you stop to think about advancement, the pilots at the top of the lower bands have access to the top pay in the next band sooner than they might have; that dampens that argument some. What's left is the pilots already at the very top who are left with just the 10% raise.

As always, things are more complicated than they seem.

Richman
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What I got from that is that it actually is a good deal, its just the butthurt factor from the highest earners will drag it down... Is that pretty much it?
 
PeanuckleCRJ said:
The precedent has been set that the 350 will pay 777/744 pay.

Now about the 330....
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O you mean like everyone else?

Everyone is gonna get some butt hurt out of it but it needs to change IMO because 1.) the 75 and 73/321 example above and 2.) Every other legacy pays the 330 the same as a 777 except us. Longer it drags on the worse it will be I think.

O and @Richman some of the senior folk will bid something more in line with what they like to fly. I know one guy would/ will bid to the ER off the whale. If it paid closer or the same he would have never left it to begin with. Some on those fleets do it purely for money not because they like the trips/destinations.

And to add about the widebody foot print. That is a factor and yes we have less but it doesn't help the fact that we pay certain "premium" widebodies less than our counter parts. That makes the foot print smaller for the pilots. We all know we want widebodies for the pay associated...
 
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ClarkGriswold said:
O you mean like everyone else?

Everyone is gonna get some butt hurt out of it but it needs to change IMO because 1.) the 75 and 73/321 example above and 2.) Every other legacy pays the 330 the same as a 777 except us. Longer it drags on the worse it will be I think.

O and @Richman alot of the senior folk will bid something more in line with what they like to fly. I know one guy would/ will bid to the ER off the whale. If it paid closer or the same he would have never left it to begin with. Some on those fleets do it purely for money not because they like the trips/destinations.
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Bingo.. The 330 not paying 777 is just a holdover from merger/seniority list posturing.
 
ClarkGriswold said:
O you mean like everyone else?

Everyone is gonna get some butt hurt out of it but it needs to change IMO because 1.) the 75 and 73/321 example above and 2.) Every other legacy pays the 330 the same as a 777 except us. Longer it drags on the worse it will be I think.

O and @Richman some of the senior folk will bid something more in line with what they like to fly. I know one guy would/ will bid to the ER off the whale. If it paid closer or the same he would have never left it to begin with. Some on those fleets do it purely for money not because they like the trips/destinations.

And to add about the widebody foot print. That is a factor and yes we have less but it doesn't help the fact that we pay certain "premium" widebodies less than our counter parts. That makes the foot print smaller for the pilots. We all know we want widebodies for the pay associated...
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You dont know anybody.
 
ian said:
that's my take as well.....that being said I support @Richman and his cohorts 100%
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Hopefully all this strong/weak high school clique behavior is behind us and everybody supports JM and the NC Committee.

Based on his knowledge and commentary at the C44 LEC Meeting I see why he was able to negotiate the greatest contract in airline history. Glad he's at the helm of the ship.
 
Trip7 said:
Hopefully all this strong/weak high school clique behavior is behind us and everybody supports JM and the NC Committee.

Based on his knowledge and commentary at the C44 LEC Meeting I see why he was able to negotiate the greatest contract in airline history. Glad he's at the helm of the ship.
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yeah....noooooooope.

Majority Rules and thankfully we have the so called 12 looking out for our actual best interests.
 
@Trip7 what would be your opinion on a TA with all the current AIPs, this rumored 18/4/4/4 and the PS changes of not pensionable and executive bonus carveout that was in the latest company proposal?
 
ian said:
@Trip7 what would be your opinion on a TA with all the current AIPs, this rumored 18/4/4/4 and the PS changes of not pensionable and executive bonus carveout that was in the latest company proposal?
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I gotta call the foul here. This is where the DPA dudes go off the rails. Mix in AIPs, pure crap against the wall conjecture and rumors with the company's proposal for PS and you get something that is so far away from a complete product its not even worth an eye roll.
 
ian said:
@Trip7 what would be your opinion on a TA with all the current AIPs, this rumored 18/4/4/4 and the PS changes of not pensionable and executive bonus carveout that was in the latest company proposal?
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I would prefer the Profit Sharing remain Pensionable. JM was confident at the meeting the remaining toxins left on the company PS proposal would be removed.

Too many variables in place to decide make a hypothetical decision on a hypothetical agreement.

As far as the AIPs, since they are pretty much set in stone, I'm not afraid to say that I am fine with them as long as the company opens up their checkbook accordingly.

I won't have a problem with going to get a doctor's note after using over 100 hours of sick time in 12 months after using 50+ hours in each of the previous 2 years for industry leading pay. Plenty of other airlines out there where your sick bank would be completely exhausted in that case.
 
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PeanuckleCRJ said:
I gotta call the foul here. This is where the DPA dudes go off the rails. Mix in AIPs, pure crap against the wall conjecture and rumors with the company's proposal for PS and you get something that is so far away from a complete product its not even worth an eye roll.
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Disagree. Everything in my post was the latest proposal from the company. The AIPs are staying. That was said at the C44 meeting and it's plastered on the DALPA site. As for the PS, that was still being demanded by the company and told to us directly by DALPA in NN 16-12. The only thing in limbo there is the % and the latest from them was 16.5/3/3/3...also in NN 16-12

Trip7 said:
I would prefer the Profit Sharing remain Pensionable. JM was confident at the meeting the remaining toxins left on the company PS proposal would be removed.

Too many variables in place to decide make a hypothetical decision on a hypothetical agreement.
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See above, i'm giving info that's "better" than NN 16-12, so most of the variables are pretty set.
 
ian said:
Disagree. Everything in my post was the latest proposal from the company. The AIPs are staying. That was said at the C44 meeting and it's plastered on the DALPA site. As for the PS, that was still being demanded by the company and told to us directly by DALPA in NN 16-12. The only thing in limbo there is the % and the latest from them was 16.5/3/3/3...also in NN 16-12



See above, i'm giving info that's "better" than NN 16-12, so most of the variables are pretty set.
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You're correct that the AIPs are set. Profit Sharing is NOT set and still under negotiation
 
ian said:
Disagree. Everything in my post was the latest proposal from the company. The AIPs are staying. That was said at the C44 meeting and it's plastered on the DALPA site. As for the PS, that was still being demanded by the company and told to us directly by DALPA in NN 16-12. The only thing in limbo there is the % and the latest from them was 16.5/3/3/3...also in NN 16-12
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Note: company proposal. Say that to yourself a few times and really understand what it means.

I doubt we'll have a TA with PS not being pensionable or the mgmt cutout. Plus there is no mention of medical, vacation, ADG and other critical aspects of a contract where the real money and QOL is.
 
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