DAL CEO interview on APM Marketplace

SurferLucas said:
There's a whole bunch ofView attachment 36314
Here...

As the white girls say..."I literally can't even right now"
Click to expand...
tumblr_lqbgc5jhV91qcorie.gif
 
There are basically three kinds of pilots...

1) Pay only. They go right to the pay grid and if the number pleases them, they are good to go. A subset of this group are those who go to the pay grid and if the number exceeds their buddy's at UA/AA/SW, they are good.

2) Focused on QoL/Benefits/Work Rules AKA "everything else".

3) Pay first, tempered by everything else. If the number in the grid is OK, it sets the bar for everything else. If the bar is low enough (high pay rates), they can jump the vote hurdle, despite some pings weighing it down. The more marginal the rate, the harder it is to tolerate everything else.

There's also what I call the "BS GAIN ADJUSTMENT". This gets turned up or turned down depending on a multitude of factors. The higher it's turned up, the more an agreement has to thread a needle. Some people fail to understand the impact of teh intrawebz on this process, to their own peril.

One thing I will say....this ain't the day of the mimeograph machine and pilots learning about what the MEC voted in when a flyer is dropped in their mailbox 3 months later. Anything will get hyper-analyzed, picked apart, re-assembled, spread-sheeted and war-gamed before the cooling fan spins down from the PC that sent out the memo. If you have to explain something and it takes more than 2 exchanges with someone, the BS GAIN ADJUSTMENT knob gets dialed to 11, and that's that.

My 0.02, but what the heck do I know?

Richman
 
Richman said:
There are basically three kinds of pilots...

1) Pay only. They go right to the pay grid and if the number pleases them, they are good to go. A subset of this group are those who go to the pay grid and if the number exceeds their buddy's at UA/AA/SW, they are good.

2) Focused on QoL/Benefits/Work Rules AKA "everything else".

3) Pay first, tempered by everything else. If the number in the grid is OK, it sets the bar for everything else. If the bar is low enough (high pay rates), they can jump the vote hurdle, despite some pings weighing it down. The more marginal the rate, the harder it is to tolerate everything else.

There's also what I call the "BS GAIN ADJUSTMENT". This gets turned up or turned down depending on a multitude of factors. The higher it's turned up, the more an agreement has to thread a needle. Some people fail to understand the impact of teh intrawebz on this process, to their own peril.

One thing I will say....this ain't the day of the mimeograph machine and pilots learning about what the MEC voted in when a flyer is dropped in their mailbox 3 months later. Anything will get hyper-analyzed, picked apart, re-assembled, spread-sheeted and war-gamed before the cooling fan spins down from the PC that sent out the memo. If you have to explain something and it takes more than 2 exchanges with someone, the BS GAIN ADJUSTMENT knob gets dialed to 11, and that's that.

My 0.02, but what the heck do I know?

Richman
Click to expand...
Spot on, I'll buy the first round.
 
Richman said:
There are basically three kinds of pilots...

1) Pay only. They go right to the pay grid and if the number pleases them, they are good to go. A subset of this group are those who go to the pay grid and if the number exceeds their buddy's at UA/AA/SW, they are good.

2) Focused on QoL/Benefits/Work Rules AKA "everything else".

3) Pay first, tempered by everything else. If the number in the grid is OK, it sets the bar for everything else. If the bar is low enough (high pay rates), they can jump the vote hurdle, despite some pings weighing it down. The more marginal the rate, the harder it is to tolerate everything else.

There's also what I call the "BS GAIN ADJUSTMENT". This gets turned up or turned down depending on a multitude of factors. The higher it's turned up, the more an agreement has to thread a needle. Some people fail to understand the impact of teh intrawebz on this process, to their own peril.

One thing I will say....this ain't the day of the mimeograph machine and pilots learning about what the MEC voted in when a flyer is dropped in their mailbox 3 months later. Anything will get hyper-analyzed, picked apart, re-assembled, spread-sheeted and war-gamed before the cooling fan spins down from the PC that sent out the memo. If you have to explain something and it takes more than 2 exchanges with someone, the BS GAIN ADJUSTMENT knob gets dialed to 11, and that's that.

My 0.02, but what the heck do I know?

Richman
Click to expand...

You guys have a thankless job. Best of luck explaining VEBA!
 
Richman said:
There are basically three kinds of pilots...

1) Pay only. They go right to the pay grid and if the number pleases them, they are good to go. A subset of this group are those who go to the pay grid and if the number exceeds their buddy's at UA/AA/SW, they are good.

2) Focused on QoL/Benefits/Work Rules AKA "everything else".

3) Pay first, tempered by everything else. If the number in the grid is OK, it sets the bar for everything else. If the bar is low enough (high pay rates), they can jump the vote hurdle, despite some pings weighing it down. The more marginal the rate, the harder it is to tolerate everything else.

There's also what I call the "BS GAIN ADJUSTMENT". This gets turned up or turned down depending on a multitude of factors. The higher it's turned up, the more an agreement has to thread a needle. Some people fail to understand the impact of teh intrawebz on this process, to their own peril.

One thing I will say....this ain't the day of the mimeograph machine and pilots learning about what the MEC voted in when a flyer is dropped in their mailbox 3 months later. Anything will get hyper-analyzed, picked apart, re-assembled, spread-sheeted and war-gamed before the cooling fan spins down from the PC that sent out the memo. If you have to explain something and it takes more than 2 exchanges with someone, the BS GAIN ADJUSTMENT knob gets dialed to 11, and that's that.

My 0.02, but what the heck do I know?

Richman
Click to expand...

Bookended by the extremes:

A) I'm a no vote regardless because you never take the first deal, A330 should pay more than 777 etc etc, or

B) Im a yes vote because you dont want to make the big bad company angry...
 
Seggy said:
It isn't that complicated.
Click to expand...
Agreed.
However, the "we have to pass it to see what's in it" mentality isn't for me. Get from "what ifs" and "we have to petition the IRS to get what we want" to actual concrete stuff I could understand the argument for it. But this has the "we didn't think they would do that" written all over it.

My understanding is this is something DALPA offered up with zero cost to the company and they actually benefit from it...this could be done in a LOA and we are wasting negotiating capital on it, unless I'm completely missing something here.

Don't get me wrong I love working here and these are 1% problems but still real issues.

Cliffs: if veba was actually voluntary like the name implies I'd be all for it even if I had to contribute my own money. it was the company money and not mine and mandatory I'd be for it. But forcing me into something I don't want, pass. Hell I'd even consider it if the excess 401k contribution was optional.
 
Last edited:
VEBA isn't voluntary? The whole part on VEBA contributions not being a part of my estate really irritates me.
 
ian said:
Agreed.
However, the "we have to pass it to see what's in it" mentality isn't for me. Get from "what ifs" and "we have to petition the IRS to get what we want" to actual concrete stuff I could understand the argument for it. But this has the "we didn't think they would do that" written all over it.
Click to expand...

Not sure where you are getting that. The VEBA is well established within the tax code.

My understanding is this is something DALPA offered up with zero cost to the company and they actually benefit from it...this could be done in a LOA and we are wasting negotiating capital on it, unless I'm completely missing something here.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I would say you probably are missing something. Overall, a VEBA helps the pilots. Not sure how that is wasting negotiating capital or why you care if it benefits the company as it helps the pilots. The bottom line is a majority of pilots at your place most likely need help with retiree medical costs and a VEBA let's someone put money in it and take it out tax free to help with ever rising medical costs one will face in retirement.

Don't get me wrong I love working here and these are 1% problems but still real issues.
Click to expand...

Ok.

Cliffs: if veba was actually voluntary like the name implies I'd be all for it even if I had to contribute my own money. it was the company money and not mine and mandatory I'd be for it. But forcing me into something I don't want, pass. Hell I'd even consider it if the excess 401k contribution was optional.
Click to expand...

Newflash, you are already 'forced' into contractual provisions that don't help you or probably somethings you don't want. They are there as it does help your fellow pilots. For example, there are provisions in our contract if you fly international or domestic. More specifically the ULH provisions don't affect me at this point, or even the majority of the pilots on property, but I am glad they are there to help the minority of pilots that do that flying. Welcome to being in a union. Just because you don't want something, doesn't mean it isn't right to have.
 
GaTechKid said:
VEBA isn't voluntary?
Click to expand...

At my place it is NOT voluntary.


The whole part on VEBA contributions not being a part of my estate really irritates me.
Click to expand...

Two points here. Your eligible dependents, who will most likely be the receivers of your estate, are eligible to the VEBA funds. Also, the VEBA gives the contributor some great tax savings.
 
Seggy said:
Not sure where you are getting that. The VEBA is well established within the tax code.
Yeah, I would say you probably are missing something. Overall, a VEBA helps the pilots. Not sure how that is wasting negotiating capital or why you care if it benefits the company as it helps the pilots. The bottom line is a majority of pilots at your place most likely need help with retiree medical costs and a VEBA let's someone put money in it and take it out tax free to help with ever rising medical costs one will face in retirement.
Newflash, you are already 'forced' into contractual provisions that don't help you or probably somethings you don't want. They are there as it does help your fellow pilots. For example, there are provisions in our contract if you fly international or domestic. More specifically the ULH provisions don't affect me at this point, or even the majority of the pilots on property, but I am glad they are there to help the minority of pilots that do that flying. Welcome to being in a union. Just because you don't want something, doesn't mean it isn't right to have.
Click to expand...
From the Q&A
Q: Pilots with Tricare may be negatively impacted as they are unable to spend down the money they were forced to save. Even if allowed to use the money to purchase a Tricare supplement plan (which as of last year was also undetermined) these pilot will lose out on thousands of hard earned dollars. The percentage of Tricare eligible Delta pilots grows with every new hire class and every Guard pilot that hits age 60. What mechanism is in place to allow lower contributions from a particular segment of our pilot group?

A: We agree with your assessment, and the VEBA Board will target a lower cap (for example) for pilots that may be Tricare eligible.

Q: In another question you mention unused funds in the VEBA, not eligible to be passed on to eligible dependents, will be distributed into the general VEBA fund to help other pilots. How will this work? Will all participants see a proportional increase to their VEBA accounts when someone has leftover funds?

A: The PRV (Pilots Retiree VEBA) account can be used for expenses incurred by the pilot, the pilot’s spouse, and any dependent children. Upon the death of the pilot and spouse, and after dependent children age-out, $50,000 (or the account balance, if lesser) is paid to the estate as survivor benefit. Any amount above $50,000 will remain within the VEBA to benefit fellow pilots. The goal of the PRV Board will be to set the account balance limit low enough to minimize the likelihood of the account balance exceeding $50,000 when the survivor benefit is paid.

Q: Who qualifies as an eligible dependent?

A: Eligible dependents include your lawful spouse, children 26 years of age or younger and disabled dependent children as defined in IRC section 152


Q: Will we have an option to continue receiving our excess 401k payments after tax and in cash?

A: The VEBA Board will determine what amount or portion of our excess (nonqualified) 401(k) payments will be contributed to the VEBA, and that amount/portion will be contributed. Once that level is reached, excess 401(k) payments will be paid as taxable pay, as they are now.

Q: Do IRS Regulations allow a VEBA plan to be set up where a pilot can vary the amount of excess contribution deposited to his VEBA, much like a pilot can change their 401(k) contribution elections?

A: We will need to request IRS approval to allow a pilot to vary the amount of his annual deposit to his VEBA account. Prior to obtaining IRS approval, we believe the VEBA Board may determine the maximum amount that will be contributed to each pilot’s VEBA account, which amounts may vary based on the facts particular to that pilot. For example, the VEBA Board could allow annual contributions up to $3,000 for pilots who are members of TRICARE but up to $5,000 for all other pilots. Alternatively, the VEBA Board could allow annual contributions in the same amount for all pilots.
Click to expand...
  • I'd be willing to bet over half of our pilots are tricare eligible
  • Who is going to retire and have children under the age of 26 which is where the 'eligible' dependent cuts off? Not many
  • It's 100% your money when you put it in, but if you die and your spouse dies, your kids can't take it if they are over 26, so essentially you contribute 100% and don't get 100% out.
  • They don't know about excess 401k contributions, essentially a "we have to pass it to know what's in it" scenario
Make it where the company contributes $1/hour to it instead of me and I will have zero objections to it.
 
ian said:
From the Q&A

  • I'd be willing to bet over half of our pilots are tricare eligible
Click to expand...
I know quite a few who aren't. I also know some guys who are Tricare eligible at my place who are happy for the VEBA as Tricare can't be used and doesn't pay for everything.

https://www.selectaccount.com/wp-content/uploads/F7536-VEBA-Eligible-Expense-List.pdf

  • Who is going to retire and have children under the age of 26 which is where the 'eligible' dependent cuts off? Not many
Click to expand...
It can be used for a spouse.

  • It's 100% your money when you put it in, but if you die and your spouse dies, your kids can't take it if they are over 26, so essentially you contribute 100% and don't get 100% out.
Click to expand...
If this happens the tax savings from your contributions were a benefit to you.

  • They don't know about excess 401k contributions, essentially a "we have to pass it to know what's in it" scenario
Click to expand...
I don't follow here.

Make it where the company contributes $1/hour to it instead of me and I will have zero objections to it.
Click to expand...

They do at our place after you hit your IRS Max retirement contributions. Would they there?
 
Last edited:
Who the heck cares about about a small amount of tax savings if I die early and my children don't inherit the bulk of my forced contributions to this program. On the plus side, I read that $50,000 is able to be passed on to my heirs so my strategy would be to spend the VEBA money first before touching any of my HSA.
 
Richman said:
There are basically three kinds of pilots...

1) Pay only. They go right to the pay grid and if the number pleases them, they are good to go. A subset of this group are those who go to the pay grid and if the number exceeds their buddy's at UA/AA/SW, they are good.

2) Focused on QoL/Benefits/Work Rules AKA "everything else".

3) Pay first, tempered by everything else. If the number in the grid is OK, it sets the bar for everything else. If the bar is low enough (high pay rates), they can jump the vote hurdle, despite some pings weighing it down. The more marginal the rate, the harder it is to tolerate everything else.

There's also what I call the "BS GAIN ADJUSTMENT". This gets turned up or turned down depending on a multitude of factors. The higher it's turned up, the more an agreement has to thread a needle. Some people fail to understand the impact of teh intrawebz on this process, to their own peril.

One thing I will say....this ain't the day of the mimeograph machine and pilots learning about what the MEC voted in when a flyer is dropped in their mailbox 3 months later. Anything will get hyper-analyzed, picked apart, re-assembled, spread-sheeted and war-gamed before the cooling fan spins down from the PC that sent out the memo. If you have to explain something and it takes more than 2 exchanges with someone, the BS GAIN ADJUSTMENT knob gets dialed to 11, and that's that.

My 0.02, but what the heck do I know?

Richman
Click to expand...

I'm solidly in the #2 camp.
 
GaTechKid said:
Who the heck cares about about a small amount of tax savings if I die early and my children don't inherit the bulk of my forced contributions to this program. On the plus side, I read that $50,000 is able to be passed on to my heirs so my strategy would be to spend the VEBA money first before touching any of my HSA.
Click to expand...

Look at the costs for health care after one retires. The reward for having a VEBA fars outweighs that risk of not being able to use the money IMHO.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top