Aircraft class and minimums

ArcherII

ArcherII

Well-Known Member
Good evening all, we are having a hard time trying to figure out the PIC/ATC responsibility over the attempt/clearance of an IFR approach with a given visibility.

Scenario:
- You are a PIC of a class C airplane about to perform an IFR approach.
- The ATC gives you the vis (say, 2000m) and the other meaningful stuff.

The approach chart says that a class C must have 2500m vis in order to be able to proceed with the approach before FAF.

Question is: Does the ATC need to be in knowledge of your class to grant or not grant clearance for the approach? Or is it a PIC responsability to know his own aircraft limitations and mimums?

As per 121.651(a), the IFR takeoff clearance shall be provided but the operator's manual has the last say on this. But for a landing scenario I can't seem to find anything of the sort.

Sorry if it's a mess, just trying to think in English here!
 
ArcherII said:
Good evening all, we are having a hard time trying to figure out the PIC/ATC responsibility over the attempt/clearance of an IFR approach with a given visibility.

Scenario:
- You are a PIC of a class C airplane about to perform an IFR approach.
- The ATC gives you the vis (say, 2000m) and the other meaningful stuff.

The approach chart says that a class C must have 2500m vis in order to be able to proceed with the approach before FAF.

Question is: Does the ATC need to be in knowledge of your class to grant or not grant clearance for the approach? Or is it a PIC responsability to know his own aircraft limitations and mimums?

As per 121.651(a), the IFR takeoff clearance shall be provided but the operator's manual has the last say on this. But for a landing scenario I can't seem to find anything of the sort.

Sorry if it's a mess, just trying to think in English here!
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It is the PIC's responsibility to know when they can begin the approach. ATC will sometimes ask what you need for the approach but it ultimately falls on the crew to know the limitations.

There are times when the published minimums are not the same as the crew minimums (high mins captain, NOTAMS, or airplane limitations could raise the minimums and ATC may not know about it.
 
We are completely clueless as to what you are qualified and/or capable of doing. That's all on you. If you can't do something, just let us know. This gets real fun on RVR days (especially weekends or holidays when there's more low time crews) and some can do the approach and some can't depending on what the RVR is at any given moment.
 
To give a good example, years ago when flying a Lear, we were going to maintenance, empty. We were operating under a Ukrainian registration. We try to get the ATIS but it's old, so we start our descent.

We check on with approach as we're descending, and the controller says good morning, you're number 1 to the field, CAT III operations in effect, continue descent. I replied negative, we'll divert as we weren't even CAT II authorized. We waited a couple of hours at the divert field for the weather to clear, and then flew to mx.

There were more discussions and phone calls involved, but you get the picture. It's all on the crew as to what you can do.
 
Thanks guys. It does seem logical to me.

The thing is that some ATCs here at my airport are keen on denying a certain aircraft's approach if the vis is below some given aircraft's class. I'm in charge of the Opsec and my Gf is the new ATC instructor and we are looking to change that, but we could not find anything within the FARs which would support our claim.

I always like to give them the example of the Antonov...An28. Whoa it's a biggie! Certainly a class E! Sure...
 
Oh and next time ATC tries to pull that •, tell them they don't know what you or your aircraft are certified for and you want X approach. (Or a phone call after landing). Sounds like a bunch of ATCers at some small Podunk tower with too much time on their hands who like to overstep their authority.
 
NovemberEcho said:
Oh and next time ATC tries to pull that , tell them they don't know what you or your aircraft are certified for and you want X approach. (Or a phone call after landing). Sounds like a bunch of ATCers at some small Podunk tower with too much time on their hands who like to overstep their authority.
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I'd swear you are familiar with my airport lol
 
ArcherII said:
I will add that this is a small Argentinian airport. But our FARs are a copy/paste of the FAA's
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I was going to ask due to you saying you were having to think in English. Thanks for adding that detail. It is very country dependent on what ATC can and will do. I do not know specifics for Argentina on this subject. Trust me, even if they are a copy and paste of FAA regs, it doesn't mean somebody didn't slip something into your regs. You need to look deep into your regs, or make some calls, to see exactly what the controllers are using.
 
Stone Cold said:
I was going to ask due to you saying you were having to think in English. Thanks for adding that detail. It is very country dependent on what ATC can and will do. I do not know specifics for Argentina on this subject. Trust me, even if they are a copy and paste of FAA regs, it doesn't mean somebody didn't slip something into your regs. You need to look deep into your regs, or make some calls, to see exactly what the controllers are using.
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I've never had any controller ask whether my aircraft was to big for the minimums provided. If I cannot do it, it shall be me who knows it.
ATCs here adhere to the 4444 ICAO reg. Which says the same thing.

Thanks for your reply.
 
NovemberEcho said:
Honestly I don't even know what class A,B, C etc means. But you should tell your gf to look in the 7110.65, not FARs or AIMs
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Look on an approach plate. At the bottom is the minimums section with Category A, B, C, D, just above it.
Category A is the slow approach speed aircraft, Category D is the fast approach speed aircraft.
Higher minimums for the faster aircraft.
 
Stinger said:
Look on an approach plate. At the bottom is the minimums section with Category A, B, C, D, just above it.
Category A is the slow approach speed aircraft, Category D is the fast approach speed aircraft.
Higher minimums for the faster aircraft.
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Yeah I know that lol but I couldn't tell you what aircraft are what class etc
 
And it also depends on what speed you're flying the approach at, for example in alot of airplanes an approach with icing calls for speeds fast enough to change the category.
 
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