Tribal Knowledge?

[poser765]

So, I've been thinking about this for a while and wanted to run it by some more of those in the industry.

I've been through a few initial training programs and several times I've seen the PRM training video, the Method 1/Method 2 power point presentation, and the high altitude aerodynamics video with Chuck Yeager twice. I get it that stuff is good and required, but I feel like there is a very distinct lack of training that would be beneficial for actual new pilots in the 121 world.

What I've been thinking of doing is putting together a small handbook going over some of the "tribal knowledge" areas a new FO is going to have to largely pick up on their own or through an oral tradition if they happen to know someone already in the world. I know at my first airline I would have been lost if I didn't have a friend who helped me out the first couple of months.

Just basic stuff, guys...How to bid, survive on reserve, use non rev and jumpseat privileges. Stuff like that. What do you think? Is there a need for something like this?

 

[4v14t0r]

It's a good idea, but so much of that stuff varies from airline to airline. It would be difficult to be specific and without being specific it may not have much use.

What some airlines do is run a mentor program to assist new hires in the specific areas, and you are then able to give specific information.


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[Mark815]

Just basic stuff, guys...How to bid, survive on reserve, use non rev and jumpseat privileges. Stuff like that. What do you think? Is there a need for something like this?

Yes. I'm not sure how ALPA shops are, but they didn't teach us anything about bidding, jumpseating etc during our training. I can understand not spending time on non-rev/jumpseat, but PBS was basically a 30min presentation and a "you'll learn it on line". It was really frustrating the first few months. Even though you'll be on reserve, you want to know HOW to use the software and what to look for when bidding.

 

[poser765]

Yes. I'm not sure how ALPA shops are, but they didn't teach us anything about bidding, jumpseating etc during our training. I can understand not spending time on non-rev/jumpseat, but PBS was basically a 30min presentation and a "you'll learn it on line". It was really frustrating the first few months. Even though you'll be on reserve, you want to know HOW to use the software and what to look for when bidding.

Yeah, that's really the big one that got me thinking about it (that and the jumpseat thread on here). My shop is ALPA and the best we have is a PBS guide on the website. Admittedly it is a pretty nice guide, but thinking about someone who is coming into it from instructing they might not even know what PBS is, what it means, or how seniority plays a part.

It's more than that, though. Our occupation is incredibly "traditionalized." From where we buy our shirts, to the overnight bags we buy and how to pack them, there are just tons of stuff we learn by saying to ourselves, whelp, I'm never doing THAT again.

 

[poser765]

It's a good idea, but so much of that stuff varies from airline to airline. It would be difficult to be specific and without being specific it may not have much use.

What some airlines do is run a mentor program to assist new hires in the specific areas, and you are then able to give specific information.


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This is true. While a lot is specific, I feel a lot of general information can be covered that is applicable to most places. That or just make it specific to my own airline.

The problem with mentor programs is they are hit or miss. I was in a union with a mentor program and never even heard from my mentor. Not once. Granted, some are a lot more efficient, but some aren't.

 

[Mark815]

but thinking about someone who is coming into it from instructing they might not even know what PBS is, what it means, or how seniority plays a part..

I came from the corporate side of flying, and the whole airline world was a culture shock to me. It isn't just the CFIs. Lots of corporate/charter, cargo and military guys have NO clue what PBS, bidding software, or what a jumpseat request/authorization card is. I think having a general 'Airlines for dummies' guide would be great, but like someone above said, all shops are slightly different!

 

[poser765]

I came from the corporate side of flying, and the whole airline world was a culture shock to me. It isn't just the CFIs. Lots of corporate/charter, cargo and military guys have NO clue what PBS, bidding software, or what a jumpseat request/authorization card is. I think having a general 'Airlines for dummies' guide would be great, but like someone above said, all shops are slightly different!

Oh for sure, but while all shops ARE slightly different, they are only different in how they implement certain fundamentals. While PBS is probably handled differently where I work than other places, it is still PBS. Someone may have United travel benefits where I only have Delta, but the concept of how to use them should be pretty similar...At least I would assume.

I'm not thinking this is going to be a BIG project. "Book" would probably be an ambitious term. I'm thinking more pamphlet size.

 

[bp]

I imagine much of this will be airline-specific, but I could appreciate something like this. We did almost nothing on PBS and never really went over jumpseating/nonreving in ground school.
I've been bugging the hell out of my ALPA-assigned mentor for stuff like this

 

[Old Dominion Flyer]

I've been bugging the hell out of my ALPA-assigned mentor for stuff like this

Thank you for doing this, and keep doing it!

I'm an ALPA mentor at a shop that grew from 600 pilots to 1000 pilots in the past 18months. It's similar to being a librarian. I certainly don't know everything, but I can direct you to the person who specializes in your area of concern. As a Captain, it also makes sense for me to volunteer in the program. We're all going to fly with new First Officers. Why not help them address their concerns before they become an issue?

 

[BobDDuck]

The specifics of most non operational stuff (bidding, vacation, non rev etc) varies from airline to airline to such an extent that a national level guide probably wouldn't be very helpful. An airline specific guide for incoming new hires would probably be a better place to start.

Also, as was said, mentor programs, when they function as designed, can certainly fill this need. Additionally, any captain worth his or her extra stripe should be able to either answer a question about one of these things from an FO or at least point them to somebody who can.

 

[poser765]

The specifics of most non operational stuff (bidding, vacation, non rev etc) varies from airline to airline to such an extent that a national level guide probably wouldn't be very helpful. An airline specific guide for incoming new hires would probably be a better place to start.

Also, as was said, mentor programs, when they function as designed, can certainly fill this need. Additionally, any captain worth his or her extra stripe should be able to either answer a question about one of these things from an FO or at least point them to somebody who can.

This is all true. When I started thinking about this project I wasn't sure if I wanted to look at it from a company specific stand point or a more general once. I think people may be right in this thread, though. While a lot of the stuff is GENERALLY the same (PBS is PBS where ever you work, and reserve is reserve, etc) the actual application is a LOT Different.

Totally agree with you and others about the mentor function in a Union, and of course as captains we should fill that roll. I still feel like that is an area that is not adequately handled.

 

[Nark]

Sounds like a job for an association that is an intermediate between a written contract and the enforcement of the company handbook...

The problem as a new hire the company wants you online making them money. Even better if you don't know your contract and they can pull a fast one against you.

 

[Richman]

Having worked on this exact kind of project at two different airlines, you'd be surprised how little support there is for such a thing.

I'm not really sure why, but have come up with a few maybes:

1) Apathy
2) "I had to learn the hard way, so should you"
3) "There's some good deals out there, and the more people know about it, the less there will be for me"
4) "Everything changes every six months, so why bother?"
5) "To much hassle to keep updated...who's going to do it?"
6) "We've got too much other stuff going on".

And you're right. The tiny brief that many shops give is presenting a way too short program on a complex topic right at the moment where pilots are least receptive to processing the information. It's low priority info at that particular time.

A good guide to bidding, flying the line, the PBS process (not the program itself), scheduling, training, non-reving/JSing, and a brief intro to whatever computer system the airline is at least 70 pages. Go more in-depth into scheduling or whatever, and you're into the triple digits.

That's a big document, and a real PITA to keep updated as things change. Even if you get it going, finding someone who's willing to run the project after you leave is like finding a unicorn swimming in a lake of liquid chocolate.

Richman

 

[Dexter]

I've come to the conclusion that people will learn as much as they want to learn in regards to insider tips and tricks at airlines. Watching a large chunk of my friends join the airlines the past few years I've seen a few really go in deep and learn how to work the system and some have never seen their contract. I'm talking to the point of one of my friends drawing a blank when I asked him about their premium pay and when they bid for the month (after being at his airline for 2 years).

 

[poser765]

Having worked on this exact kind of project at two different airlines, you'd be surprised how little support there is for such a thing.

I'm not really sure why, but have come up with a few maybes:

1) Apathy
2) "I had to learn the hard way, so should you"
3) "There's some good deals out there, and the more people know about it, the less there will be for me"
4) "Everything changes every six months, so why bother?"
5) "To much hassle to keep updated...who's going to do it?"
6) "We've got too much other stuff going on".

And you're right. The tiny brief that many shops give is presenting a way too short program on a complex topic right at the moment where pilots are least receptive to processing the information. It's low priority info at that particular time.

A good guide to bidding, flying the line, the PBS process (not the program itself), scheduling, training, non-reving/JSing, and a brief intro to whatever computer system the airline is at least 70 pages. Go more in-depth into scheduling or whatever, and you're into the triple digits.

That's a big document, and a real PITA to keep updated as things change. Even if you get it going, finding someone who's willing to run the project after you leave is like finding a unicorn swimming in a lake of liquid chocolate.

Richman

Yeah, that's really interesting. Even in this thread there has been a whole lot of positive support for something like this. And it very well could be a tried and true bad idea. I just can't help but remember young poser when I got scheduled for my first trip of IOE. I was lost. Hell, I barely knew how to get to base in order to start the trip. Fast forward two airline and when I started at the current shop I quite literally had to give a lecture to our new hire class (about ten people) how to use KCM, how to make a non rev listing, and how and why to set up a standing bid. I've been helped by my seniors, and helped my juniors with everything from, what kind of luggage is best, and where to buy uniform shirts, to how to survive overnights and how to pack food for a 4 day trip. Intellectually I can't help but think some sort of handout covering this crap would be great, but I guess the psychology is a different matter.

The responses in this thread seem to indicate it's not such a hot idea. I may spend some time making something up...I mean I am just sitting around on my little pilot butt doing nothing on reserve... but I don't really envision any sort of official distribution. Maybe more something to be handed out to friends and acquaintances coming up.

 

[Adler]

I've come to the conclusion that people will learn as much as they want to learn in regards to insider tips and tricks at airlines. Watching a large chunk of my friends join the airlines the past few years I've seen a few really go in deep and learn how to work the system and some have never seen their contract. I'm talking to the point of one of my friends drawing a blank when I asked him about their premium pay and when they bid for the month (after being at his airline for 2 years).

I've never opened up the contract unless I have a specific question I'm looking up. There's so much "need to know" information keeping you from a violation in the FOM, AOM I, AOM II, FAR/AIM, etc; I'd rather spend my time trying to learn all of that than get all flustered about contract minutia like if bid packet came out an hour late.

But on the original topic, our union emails for like a month ended with a section of "tribal knowledge" stuff. I chuckled when I read one explaining how to hang your pants so they self release the wrinkles. Sad to see it not last. Maybe the next one could include a bit on how "FLCH and a speed reduction does not result in descending and slowing - which is what ATC told you to do!" Not exactly PhD level knowlege, but you'd be surprised.

 

[poser765]

I've never opened up the contract unless I have a specific question I'm looking up. There's so much "need to know" information keeping you from a violation in the FOM, AOM I, AOM II, FAR/AIM, etc; I'd rather spend my time trying to learn all of that than get all flustered about contract minutia like if bid packet came out an hour late.

I'm almost the same way. Though there is a lot of stuff in there that can pop up without you realizing it's applicable unless you knew it was in there...just like the FOM. For instance I could tell you crap all about mil leave and displacements because those don't or haven't applied to me. I do try to maintain a working knowledge of the sections that do apply to me situation like scheduling/reserve.

 

[Richman]

Poser,

Here's the thing...it's NOT a bad idea. In fact, it's an awesome idea. The one that I wrote is over 150 pages and covers a metric ton of stuff, with easy to find topics like "how to drop trips" (a topic at our shop with multiple solutions) and "what to do with your medical", along with warnings in bold print about stuff that can make your flying life not-so-fun.

But something like this has a lot of nit noid details. If you put it out, you really want to make sure the facts are right. Getting those facts checked takes multiple iterations with people who may or may not be down with your project.

And every time something changes, you have to update it, be it a contract change or the location of the water fountain in the crew room in East Nowhere, and that turns into more hassle than you can believe. Even small projects can turn into a Master's thesis.

As others have pointed out, people tend to drill down and focus on stuff that only applies to them and their little slice of life, and sometimes not even then. Generally people find it's easier to just ask around, despite the random nature of the answers. Even pretty decent & helpful Union pubs bounce harmlessly off this phenomenon.

While this makes my anal-retentive head 'splode, it's the way it is. That makes a project like this not really worth the juice for the writing squeeze it takes, unless you want to do it for yourself.

But don't let me stop ya....

Richman

 

[poser765]

Poser,

Here's the thing...it's NOT a bad idea. In fact, it's an awesome idea. The one that I wrote is over 150 pages and covers a metric ton of stuff, with easy to find topics like "how to drop trips" (a topic at our shop with multiple solutions) and "what to do with your medical", along with warnings in bold print about stuff that can make your flying life not-so-fun.

But something like this has a lot of nit noid details. If you put it out, you really want to make sure the facts are right. Getting those facts checked takes multiple iterations with people who may or may not be down with your project.

And every time something changes, you have to update it, be it a contract change or the location of the water fountain in the crew room in East Nowhere, and that turns into more hassle than you can believe. Even small projects can turn into a Master's thesis.

As others have pointed out, people tend to drill down and focus on stuff that only applies to them and their little slice of life, and sometimes not even then. Generally people find it's easier to just ask around, despite the random nature of the answers. Even pretty decent & helpful Union pubs bounce harmlessly off this phenomenon.

While this makes my anal-retentive head 'splode, it's the way it is. That makes a project like this not really worth the juice for the writing squeeze it takes, unless you want to do it for yourself.

But don't let me stop ya....

Richman

Yeah, Rich, I am pretty much on board with your thinking. I'll keep thinking about it and maybe work on it here and there and see if it really takes off with me. If it does, great. if not? Oh well...I'm not desperate to get into the project.

Thank you for your i input!

 

[bp]

Maybe the compromise is for someone to make a "Guide to Guiding Newhires" to give to mentors, unless they already have such a thing. An outline format of stuff that newhires might need, then mentors can edit and throw in some other information that their mentees might find useful (ie, FO calls the hotel shuttle after finishing x in the airplane) and distribute it to them as soon as they are assigned a mentor. As long as they keep their outline updated, it should be a good enough starting point to get us newbs to hit the ground running and figure stuff out on our own