Advice/Help with Delta

Crop Duster said:
Ironic.

Probably the most important attribute of a good pilot is his/her ability to exercise sound judgement in a fluid environment and make good decisions. Sooooooo, therefore, the airlines, allegedly filled with good pilots, abrogate their decision-making responsibility and abandon their judgement for the hassle-free (read fear-free) convenience of HR departments checking boxes as an arbitrary proxy for reality!?

I like that you put "known quantities" in quotes. Speaking only from my own experiences with many pilots from many backgrounds, I would definitely NOT make any assumptions about the consistency of product coming out of any particular aviation training or experience background. I've seen pilots with "perfect" resumés who hand flew like new students, others who made decisions like drunken despots. And I've seen pilots with "perfect" resumés who demonstrated capabilities close to perfection. It's the person, not the paper. It's the walk, not the talk. The FOI, and other reliable sources inform us that learning is a demonstrated change in behavior based on experience; It's not the experience itself, and it's not the paper stating that the experience allegedly took place.

So, all you HR Potentates: ... Don't Abrogate! Have 'em Demonstrate!*

Screening for hire is a lot like testing, or should be anyway, and could take a clue from testing science. The hiring process is a test seeking to measure something. So a good place to start would be to define -explicitly- what that something is. Then design a tool to test for that something... a tool that is Comprehensive, Reliable, Valid, Discriminating (no, not that kind), and Usable.

Nowhere in any exegeses of testing have I ever seen listed "eliminating fear" or "avoiding lawsuits" as desired testing characteristic goals.

And nowhere in any scientific research of any kind have I ever seen "reliance on vague assumptions" used as a proof of fact.

(Preemptive rebuttal to the $-based "usability" replies: Part of Usability is efficiency of grading... but NOT to the elimination or significant degradation of any of the other characteristics. I mean, if you look at Usability as ONLY efficiency, i.e dollars, you can then think of all the other characteristics as the products you are buying with your dollars. If you focus so greatly on usability (cost) that you end up with limited reliability, validity, and discrimination... then what the heck are you paying for?? It becomes kinda like my ol' Uncle Burt used to say, "Quality, Speed, or Price: Pick any Two!")

*In many cases, don't even bother with that; just give the job to the people capable of doing the job, and then fire yourselves for incompetence.
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The elephant in the room is: "is this person likable and can he represent the organization well?".

Err'body's a pilot.

The hour grid at the top of everyones resume is a jumble of quantitative metrics but not necessarily "qualitative".

"Hey Janice! This ones got 24% more PIC than the other candidate, call him first!" said no HR department ever.
 
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TrustMeI'maPilot said:
I really, really want to work for Delta and I'm seeking some insight on their hiring. I'm lucky enough to have a few friends helping me by reviewing my app and giving me an internal rec, unfortunately haven't heard a peep yet. I'm in the 91 world so I don't have a lot of contacts at the airlines but I'm going to OBAP in August and I'm excited to talk to a recruiter. Until then I feel like I'm having to sitting on my hands here. Is there anything else I can be doing to get some facetime?

My main question, and @Derg would probably be the most helpful here, is about recent flight time. The plane I was flying went away earlier this year at my company, but they kept me on full-time salary as a desk employee (very grateful to them for it). So I've barely been flying, couple of contract trips here and there and I'm getting a flight review soon. How important is this to them?
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Most airlines are going to value "recency of experience". it doesn't necessarily mean "X hrs/month", but if you're a well qualified candidate but you haven't flown in 6 months, that can be a problem. But if you're at least 100 hours in the last 12 months with many operations, you're alright. The evaluator is going to understand that many military, part 91 and newish upgrades are going to be on the lower end of the scale and that's not a problem.

One question that might spring up is with your reduced flying, have you been seeking leadership opportunities expanding your professional portfolio or have you been sitting at home watching "The View" checking into the hangar on a weekly basis?
 
Crop Duster said:
Because Facebook is a whole other kind of unquestioned "new-norm" nightmare. Not gonna do it. Wouldn't be prudent. Sheesh, who'd-a-thunk the world would get so inured to vacuous, noxious babble that that guy would eventually sound wise.
Happy to send it to Delta though, if you are seriously asking.
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If you have a specific question, send a message here: https://www.facebook.com/deltapilotrecruiting

I hear you'll get a straight answer.
 
Derg said:
Most airlines are going to value "recency of experience". it doesn't necessarily mean "X hrs/month", but if you're a well qualified candidate but you haven't flown in 6 months, that can be a problem. But if you're at least 100 hours in the last 12 months with many operations, you're alright. The evaluator is going to understand that many military, part 91 and newish upgrades are going to be on the lower end of the scale and that's not a problem.

One question that might spring up is with your reduced flying, have you been seeking leadership opportunities expanding your professional portfolio or have you been sitting at home watching "The View" checking into the hangar on a weekly basis?
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This is what I was looking for. Any idea how unloggable time is viewed? I have done a few mentoring flights and have more coming up where I'm helping an owner pilot in his CJ. Because he has a single pilot type rating I can't log any of the time. Do you know if this still would be "0" hours to Delta?

Can you expand a little on your second paragraph? I've been volunteering more now that I'm in the office. Other then that there is no opportunity for movement professionally at my company.
 
TrustMeI'maPilot said:
This is what I was looking for. Any idea how unloggable time is viewed? I have done a few mentoring flights and have more coming up where I'm helping an owner pilot in his CJ. Because he has a single pilot type rating I can't log any of the time. Do you know if this still would be "0" hours to Delta?
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I don't think it matters if you can log those hours or not, if you can get it in your application/resume demonstrating that you are getting out there and doing stuff to become that likeable, brand-enhancing unicorn.
 
Crop Duster said:
Ironic.

Probably the most important attribute of a good pilot is his/her ability to exercise sound judgement in a fluid environment and make good decisions. Sooooooo, therefore, the airlines, allegedly filled with good pilots, abrogate their decision-making responsibility and abandon their judgement for the hassle-free (read fear-free) convenience of HR departments checking boxes as an arbitrary proxy for reality!?

I like that you put "known quantities" in quotes. Speaking only from my own experiences with many pilots from many backgrounds, I would definitely NOT make any assumptions about the consistency of product coming out of any particular aviation training or experience background. I've seen pilots with "perfect" resumés who hand flew like new students, others who made decisions like drunken despots. And I've seen pilots with "perfect" resumés who demonstrated capabilities close to perfection. It's the person, not the paper. It's the walk, not the talk. The FOI, and other reliable sources inform us that learning is a demonstrated change in behavior based on experience; It's not the experience itself, and it's not the paper stating that the experience allegedly took place.

So, all you HR Potentates: ... Don't Abrogate! Have 'em Demonstrate!*

Screening for hire is a lot like testing, or should be anyway, and could take a clue from testing science. The hiring process is a test seeking to measure something. So a good place to start would be to define -explicitly- what that something is. Then design a tool to test for that something... a tool that is Comprehensive, Reliable, Valid, Discriminating (no, not that kind), and Usable.

Nowhere in any exegeses of testing have I ever seen listed "eliminating fear" or "avoiding lawsuits" as desired testing characteristic goals.

And nowhere in any scientific research of any kind have I ever seen "reliance on vague assumptions" used as a proof of fact.

(Preemptive rebuttal to the $-based "usability" replies: Part of Usability is efficiency of grading... but NOT to the elimination or significant degradation of any of the other characteristics. I mean, if you look at Usability as ONLY efficiency, i.e dollars, you can then think of all the other characteristics as the products you are buying with your dollars. If you focus so greatly on usability (cost) that you end up with limited reliability, validity, and discrimination... then what the heck are you paying for?? It becomes kinda like my ol' Uncle Burt used to say, "Quality, Speed, or Price: Pick any Two!")

*In many cases, don't even bother with that; just give the job to the people capable of doing the job, and then fire yourselves for incompetence.
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This ish again?

If anyone is wondering, the majors seem to be very happy with the guys they have hired and the training success and retention numbers pretty much speak for themselves.
 
TrustMeI'maPilot said:
This is what I was looking for. Any idea how unloggable time is viewed? I have done a few mentoring flights and have more coming up where I'm helping an owner pilot in his CJ. Because he has a single pilot type rating I can't log any of the time. Do you know if this still would be "0" hours to Delta?

Can you expand a little on your second paragraph? I've been volunteering more now that I'm in the office. Other then that there is no opportunity for movement professionally at my company.
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I wouldn't have a significant amount of time I'd log like that. And if it's being used to establish your currency, I heavily wouldn't suggest a significant amount.

On the second paragraph, "why aren't you flying more?"
 
I actually just recently flew with one of the guys on the former hiring board at my company (and who hired me). His stories were interesting. I see why the larger companies like to hire former commuter/mil guys over the corp or "south FL" freight operators now. Lots of lying and deceit happen even at this level even after the vetting that takes place prior to calling someone in to interview.

With a commuter guy, you pretty much know what you are getting. Most of the commuters have excellent training departments who don't hesitate to let people go if they can't or won't pass. Think of the worst pilots you ever flew with at your commuter. In the big scheme of things they weren't bad at all. Eccentric, OK yep but as far as aeronautical decision making goes, they know how to get the job done safely.

The people doing the hiring aren't stupid.
 
TrustMeI'maPilot said:
Virginia Beach, VA
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I live in vb as well. I was flying corporate out of ORF and took a massive pay cut to go to the regionals because I knew I wanted to go to a major. I was at Air Wisconsin and a year and a half and got hired by a major. If you're not flying much you're going to need to suck it up and go to a regional. Air Wisconsin would be perfect if you don't want to move.
 
learhawkerbe400 said:
I live in vb as well. I was flying corporate out of ORF and took a massive pay cut to go to the regionals because I knew I wanted to go to a major. I was at Air Wisconsin and a year and a half and got hired by a major. If you're not flying much you're going to need to suck it up and go to a regional. Air Wisconsin would be perfect if you don't want to move.
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Thanks, I did work for AWAC for a year out of Norfolk. I'm not ruling it out, just trying to avoid it. I'm going to see if I can get any traction with anyone in August, if not I'll probably go the regional route. Wish AWAC had a sign on bonus.
 
TrustMeI'maPilot said:
Thanks, I did work for AWAC for a year out of Norfolk. I'm not ruling it out, just trying to avoid it. I'm going to see if I can get any traction with anyone in August, if not I'll probably go the regional route. Wish AWAC had a sign on bonus.
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AWAC generally doesn't hire previous employees back again. You might have burned that bridge.
 
wheelsup said:
AWAC generally doesn't hire previous employees back again. You might have burned that bridge.
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Very real possibility, luckily I know I few people that can help out though. And they just had a class that had zero people, so I would assume they might relax their standards.
 
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