Three Dead in Houston Cirrus Crash

MFT1Air said:
. . .and I'll respectfully disagree with you as well. . .simply because of the semantics of the word. So, educate me, please. If there's a possible "threat to life or limb," doesn't THAT constitute an emergency vice being in a stressful/difficult situation?
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By that logic every time the plane moves you should declare an emergency.
 
tomokc said:
No. Absolutely not. Just because things are going wrong - perhaps several critical things - doesn't mean it's an emergency, nor does it justify declaring.
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At what point do you reach out and say I'm in over my head, I need help? I certainly hope it's not when you're hitting the ground or you got yourself in too deep that hitting the ground is inevitable.
 
TurdBird said:
At what point do you reach out and say I'm in over my head, I need help? I certainly hope it's not when you're hitting the ground or you got yourself in too deep that hitting the ground is inevitable.
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I remember very clearly, as a new PPL, with little to no appreciable instrument training, launching on a summer afternoon for a 141 syllabus "long cross country". Blue sky VMC day @ KEUG when I launched, same at KMFR when I landed after leg 1. Leg 2 was to KCEC. Got the weather brief, looked great and launched. Took my trusty Arrow in for some T+G's, and then started the return leg to KEUG up through the pass and through the rogue valley. About the time I got there, summer thunderstorms had drastically multiplied and solidified on the route. To the point where I was down to like 3k AGL below mountaintops trying to pick my way through, too low in places to pick up navaids. That was the first time I ever had to say "I'm over my head". Cried uncle to center or approach or whomever I was on flight following with, and they gave me some vectors that got me through the worst of it (and kept me VMC). Landed right before a big thunderstorm washed over KEUG. I think that decision, and maybe a little luck too, was the difference between an inadvertent VMC to IMC or CFIT mishap, and what happened which was a safe landing at home field. Though it was a lesson derived from my own mistake, that lesson has stuck with me, and is the little bird on my shoulder that always says "ask for help if you need it". In this case, turning around and going home would have been the equivalent decision I think.
 
tomokc said:
No. Absolutely not. Just because things are going wrong - perhaps several critical things - doesn't mean it's an emergency, nor does it justify declaring.
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I don't understand the logic of what is worthy of declaring or not worthy of declaring? Figure out the paperwork later....and that includes figuring out whether your "emergency" was justifiable of not. I'm pretty sure 99.9% of the time everyone will be happy you're safe on the ground....

And just to clarify...I'm not saying just abuse the system but I'm not going to think twice or three times about whether I should declare and if it's a right time....

100% agree with @TurdBird
 
TurdBird said:
At what point do you reach out and say I'm in over my head, I need help? I certainly hope it's not when you're hitting the ground or you got yourself in too deep that hitting the ground is inevitable.
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That's the actual reason pilot certificates aren't given to monkeys and dogs, though both have shown proficiency in just flying even spacecraft....
 
As a controller, I would much prefer you declare emergency and we get you on the ground safe than you not declare trying to toughen it out and die. The one fatal accident I have is a pilot who ran out of gas and hit the trees 1/2 mile short of the runway. He never declared. I wound up declaring for him but he wasted a lot of time between initially telling me he might have a problem and when his engine died and I declared for him. Based on his initial few transmissions I had no idea the severity of the problem he was facing or his intentions. I truly believe had he declared emergency even a couple minutes earlier he would have made the runway. And this was no rookie pilot. He was a retired AF SpecOps pilot and owned a flight contract company that did intel work with the government.

http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/brief.aspx?ev_id=20131218X10522

So please, rather than having me haunted with your last words and wondering what I could have done better, declare emergency, get on the ground, than figure it out.
 
FlyingAccountant said:
Main cause here seems to be the fact that she was in way over her head at a much busier airport than she should have been at it and then it just cascaded from there.
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That would actually be a secondary factor.

A main cause would be something to the effect of: Aircraft control - Not maintained - Pilot in Command.

What you mention would fall under a secondary factor, again with the PIC as culprit, or experience - low, or overconfidence in personal ability; either of which were supporting factors that would lead to the main cause.

That's just an example. Nothing has formally come out yet.
 
Local Norman station is reporting that "The plane () began having trouble". Yeah........

Interesting flight track along with the story:

http://www.koco.com/news/3-dead-aft...rashes-into-car-near-houston-airport/39982940

tonydana-219x300.jpg
 
On the subject of declaring, certain mistakes or problems at any point in a flight can lead to catastrophe. A good aviator anticipates those problems and has various solutions ready to employ. If declaring an emergency enhances your position, then use it. If not, then don't. Like many/most on this board, I've had my share of problems in the air, but have thankfully never felt the need to declare or call for the equipment.
 
///AMG said:
I remember very clearly, as a new PPL, with little to no appreciable instrument training, launching on a summer afternoon for a 141 syllabus "long cross country". Blue sky VMC day @ KEUG when I launched, same at KMFR when I landed after leg 1. Leg 2 was to KCEC. Got the weather brief, looked great and launched. Took my trusty Arrow in for some T+G's, and then started the return leg to KEUG up through the pass and through the rogue valley. About the time I got there, summer thunderstorms had drastically multiplied and solidified on the route. To the point where I was down to like 3k AGL below mountaintops trying to pick my way through, too low in places to pick up navaids. That was the first time I ever had to say "I'm over my head". Cried uncle to center or approach or whomever I was on flight following with, and they gave me some vectors that got me through the worst of it (and kept me VMC). Landed right before a big thunderstorm washed over KEUG. I think that decision, and maybe a little luck too, was the difference between an inadvertent VMC to IMC or CFIT mishap, and what happened which was a safe landing at home field. Though it was a lesson derived from my own mistake, that lesson has stuck with me, and is the little bird on my shoulder that always says "ask for help if you need it". In this case, turning around and going home would have been the equivalent decision I think.
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I had a similar scare related to freezing rain when I was a freshly rated instrument pilot (which gives you just enough experience, I hope, to get into trouble - not necessarily avoid it). Should've known better, didn't, ran out of performance with an airframe full of ice, effectively declared an emergency (I was no longer asking - call it whatever you want, the magic word was never uttered, but I took control), landed and waited out the weather.

FLY THE AIRPLANE FIRST, and
IT IS YOUR AIRPLANE, YOU ARE IN COMMAND.
 
I read in a Flying(?) Magazine issue about why are pilots scared of saying the E word? They told the story in a conference where the speaker was a Pilot, and asked the attendants (Pilots as well) who had declared an emergency - and got several dozen hands - and then he asked How many of you had to file as much as a single paper after it? Not one hand was up.

I learned this first hand as well, during multi training I once forgot to tighten the oil dipstick and had a leak right after leaving the pattern in a Towered fiel. My instructir declared an Emmergency, we landed, and I was really worried of a possible lawsuit coming... Then an airport fireman came, asked what happened, he said "oh ok. Good to hear you're both ok. Happy flying!" And left. The school cleaned the airplane, refilled the oil and I was back flying 45 minutes later.

Lesson learned, DO NOT be afraid of the E Word. Specially in e US
 
Btw I'm wondering if fuel had anything to do with it, there was no fire and on the surveilance video you can clearly see the wing breaking open and no fluid (fuel) seems to spill...
 
Problem with some Cirrus owners is that they think because they have a parachute that they can just pull it whenever to get themselves out of a situation they should have never been in. The 'chute has certain parameters that have to be met before pulling it.
 
thevideographer said:
By that logic every time the plane moves you should declare an emergency.
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My point exactly. The answer is to declare when there's a threat to life or limb. For this case, I am trying to ascertain if there is. I mean really. . .appears she had everyone's undivided attention. . .declaring an emergency would have done what to elevate HER aviation prowess?

But ok. . .run the hypothetical simulation. Try to simulate an AOPA accident analysis video. Factors will include the pilot history/experience/time in this aircraft/total time, weather, plane capability, fuel on board, passengers, comments from CFIs who have flown with her, perhaps her examiner, traffic density at the airport, etc. etc.

Her first "go around." Why? A 737 was behind her. "Maintain max speed on the descent." Had she heard that before? What did ATC see that directed him to tell her to abort the landing? It appeared she was nominal on the landing until ATC directed otherwise. So, things are picking up for the pilot. As she transitions through each approach, when might one speculate she believes she might be over her head and ultimately declare an emergency? Trying to gain a perspective. Oh yes. . . there might be a time where she KNOWS she can't handle the situation. I'm simply wondering when she believes that time would have been.
 
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MaRiO FDZ said:
Btw I'm wondering if fuel had anything to do with it, there was no fire and on the surveilance video you can clearly see the wing breaking open and no fluid (fuel) seems to spill...
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I was wondering the same thing in conjunction with the multiple reports of sputtering engine. Hard turn on low tanks cause fuel starvation when you need power most?
 
MaRiO FDZ said:
Btw I'm wondering if fuel had anything to do with it, there was no fire and on the surveilance video you can clearly see the wing breaking open and no fluid (fuel) seems to spill...
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I was running that possibility in my head as well with fuel burn/route distance/time in the air/possible weight/winds aloft and how much fuel she potentially had on board. They were 3+ hours in the air with three souls on board. Wonder how her fuel burn played into her thought process as well.
 
KOUN-KHOU is 370nm. I'm not familiar with Cirrus, but with three adults and some baggage, they may not have been able to carry much fuel.
 
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