Localizer Intercept Vectors

[DhruvK]

Eh, what happens in the back doesn't change what is and isn't legal and safe up front.

If you don't like it, by all means "unable” it. I'm ok sliding it by a mile or two to keep the operation moving as long as I don't break stabilized approach criteria.

ATC doesn't quibble FAR 91 minutae with me, so I'm not going to sit there policing the 7110.65 with them. Two-way street

 

[gotWXdagain]

If you don't like it, by all means "unable” it. I'm ok sliding it by a mile or two to keep the operation moving as long as I don't break stabilized approach criteria.

ATC doesn't quibble FAR 91 minutae with me, so I'm not going to sit there policing the 7110.65 with them. Two-way street

SIR! I cannot accept this vectors as it places me too close to the final approach fix and my autopilot **might** not capture the glideslope!

(Controller): Dude it's just you and me on this frequency, do whatever you want.

 

[z987k]

Gee. I was hoping they were right. It would be nice to feel I accomplished the impossible every time I receive vectors for an RNAV/GPS approach

To give them some due, maybe they were talking about RNAV approaches that are not in a radar environment?

You can't get vectors to any approach not in a radar environment. The fact that it's RNAV doesn't matter at all at that point.

 

[DhruvK]

You can't get vectors to any approach not in a radar environment. The fact that it's RNAV doesn't matter at all at that point.

You mean that's what the "radar" in "radar vectors" is? I've had it wrong all along...

 

[Ozelot]

Figured not. This was maintain 3,000 Direct HILZZ cleared ILS 14 to STP. Wasn't much more than maybe 10-15 degrees intercept and ended up working out. 500 foot ceiling that early morning.

Ummm..3000 until hills? If so that's...odd... The MVA in that area is 3400 due to the Shoreview antennas.

 

[DhruvK]

Ummm..3000 until hills? If so that's...odd... The MVA in that area is 3400 due to the Shoreview antennas.

I've heard plenty of direct ARDNN at 3k. Wonder if that's what he meant?

 

[Ozelot]

I've heard plenty of direct ARDNN at 3k. Wonder if that's what he meant?

That's what I use...nearly all the time. Or the GEP transition of its a dude coming from rixie.

 

[gotWXdagain]

Ummm..3000 until hills? If so that's...odd... The MVA in that area is 3400 due to the Shoreview antennas.

Holy! I didn't even think of that at the time, which is especially frightening given we came from that side.

But it was definitely HILZZ. I've received it before in visual conditions. ARDNN is what we usually get, maybe he thought he was saving us time.

The 650/750 didn't yell at me about the obstacles and we were never given a low altitude alert by approach or tower.

 

[gotWXdagain]

Although I will add, while the localizer needle wasn't centered when he gave us the clearance, It was coming alive maybe right as we got it or very soon after.

 

[z987k]

Ummm..3000 until hills? If so that's...odd... The MVA in that area is 3400 due to the Shoreview antennas.

MVAs scare me. There's nothing I can do to verify that we're not going to hit anything at an MVA.

 

[NovemberEcho]

MVAs scare me. There's nothing I can do to verify that we're not going to hit anything at an MVA.

At the MVA you're fine. It's when you're below it that you should worry lol

 

[FM_Weasel]

Yeah but a pilot will never know when they're below the MVA.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

You can't get vectors to any approach not in a radar environment. The fact that it's RNAV doesn't matter at all at that point.

You are right of course. But that doesn't change what I speculated the school might (wrongly) be thinking - that all RNAV approaches were in non-radar environments.

There are other possibilities as well. I recall in the early days of RNAV approaches being told by ATC (during practice) they could not vector me for the approach. They explained the reason was they didn't have the all RNAV fixes displayed, so could not determine the appropriate approach gate.

Assuming that was correct, it was, of course, very short-lived, but as we all know, information that may have been correct in the past tends to live well beyond its time.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

Yeah but a pilot will never know when they're below the MVA.

"Never"?

I'm not usually concerned about a series of ATC altitude assignments that bring me lower than the published minimum altitudes but if I were, I would take the few seconds to ask.

 

[FM_Weasel]

"Never"?

I'm not usually concerned about a series of ATC altitude assignments that bring me lower than the published minimum altitudes but if I were, I would take the few seconds to ask.

Of course not never. But you knew that.

Most pilots won't have any information on MVAs in a given area.

 

[cmac88]

In the center environment you can only vector inside the iaf for approaches where you have the final approach course depicted. There are also rules for the range settings although I think those rarely come into play unless youre in a mid configuration and even then there's an allowance for having it on a scope next to you that's at an appropriate range. For my airspace that's 2 airports out of the 50+ that have approaches. So in most circumstances no we can't vector to final but you can still get vectors so you don't have to do a pt.

 

[GolfChuck]

OK, forgive my ignorance, but how is direct HILZZ a vector? Looking at the approach plate the controller probably meant ARDZZ. I've already been cleared to the FAF for the wrong runway and I only have a minimal amount of instrument training/experience on that side of the mic. There is nothing wrong with questioning a clearance or saying unable, we are a team. It has been quite a while, but I believe a vector would be "3 miles from the FAF, maintain 3500, fly heading 160 until established on the localizer, cleared ILS RY14 approach"

 

[DhruvK]

OK, forgive my ignorance, but how is direct HILZZ a vector?

Anything that isn't explicitly a published route or procedure segment is considered a vector regardless of how you're navigating to it. The furthest extent case is that say you're established on an airway from ABC to XYZ and a controller clears you direct XYZ, you're now no longer on the airway but on a "vector" to XYZ instead.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

Heh, MSP approach...

I put on my best SJI pilot voice (with apologies to @Cptnchia and @Derg) and politely (but firmly) informed them that I could not simultaneously slow down and go down the last time I was there. This was after the runway change upon check in with the final controller ("Oh yeah we can do that it's a shorter taxi" ), resetting SPS/ICE speeds, retuning, rebriefing and then being given an expedited descent.

I mean, I can do all that; it's just a lot of work.

"Unable" is probably the most powerful word in the P/CG.

 

[GolfChuck]

Anything that isn't explicitly a published route or procedure segment is considered a vector regardless of how you're navigating to it. The furthest extent case is that say you're established on an airway from ABC to XYZ and a controller clears you direct XYZ, you're now no longer on the airway but on a "vector" to XYZ instead.

.65 5-6, ALL examples of vectoring include issuance of a heading to fly.