The warping of intent: FAR 117

jtrain609 said:
Refusals ARE for fatigue. Refusing an extension just because you're angry about the staffing situation can get you disciplined at many carriers.
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No. Refusals aren't ALWAYS for fatigue. Did you look at the scenario of refusing due to the legality of the unforeseen circumstance, or did you miss it again?
 
SpiceWeasel said:
No. Refusals aren't ALWAYS for fatigue. Did you look at the scenario of refusing due to the legality of the unforeseen circumstance, or did you miss it again?
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If you think the extension is applied improperly, then you need to talk with your CPO about how an extension cannot be applied to the situation at hand. In that case you're not talking about an extension refusal, you're talking about an illegal schedule modification.
 
Richman said:
If you are not "fit to continue" and you let the Captain know, and he or she elects to coninute, then THEY are in violation of FAR 117.

Intentionally.

That is no bueno if someone finds out. They are completely fuxxored if something bad happens.

Richman
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Yup. Does SouthernJets split the crew like we do though?

It can be said this boils down to pay. If you refuse an extension here, you get paid for what you would have flown had you extended. If you call in fatigued, they use your PTO to cover the leg. Hence, CA is pay protected always, FO utilizes PTO.

I haven't had it happen to me yet, but it'll be interesting when the CA refuses an extension and they recrew his seat and force me to fatigue call.
 
SpiceWeasel said:
It can be said this boils down to pay. If you refuse an extension here, you get paid for what you would have flown had you extended. If you call in fatigued, they use your PTO to cover the leg. Hence, CA is pay protected always, FO utilizes PTO.
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Like I said, contact negotiations :)
 
mastermags said:
Has this actually come up where you were too tired for an extension and the Captain told you you were on your own?
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Come on man... Read the reg: your CA isn't making the call for the crew, he's making the call for himself. He cannot accept or reject an extension on behalf of the FO because the reg isn't for the crew, it's for the CA. At least that's how accepting / rejecting extensions is being interpreted by a company. The FO is left only with a fatigue call. So, the CA can refuse the extension (but not be fatigued yet), the FO unless calling fatigued would remain on the pairing.
 
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§117.19 Flight duty period extensions.
(a) For augmented and unaugmented operations, if unforeseen operational circumstances arise prior to takeoff:

(1) The pilot in command and the certificate holder may extend the maximum flight duty period permitted in Tables B or C of this part up to 2 hours. The pilot in command and the certificate holder may also extend the maximum combined flight duty period and reserve availability period limits specified in §117.21(c)(3) and (4) of this part up to 2 hours.

(2) An extension in the flight duty period under paragraph (a)(1) of this section of more than 30 minutes may occur only once prior to receiving a rest period described in §117.25(b).

(3) A flight duty period cannot be extended under paragraph (a)(1) of this section if it causes a flightcrew member to exceed the cumulative flight duty period limits specified in 117.23(c).

(4) Each certificate holder must report to the Administrator within 10 days any flight duty period that exceeded the maximum flight duty period permitted in Tables B or C of this part by more than 30 minutes. The report must contain the following:

(i) A description of the extended flight duty period and the circumstances surrounding the need for the extension; and

(ii) If the circumstances giving rise to the extension were within the certificate holder's control, the corrective action(s) that the certificate holder intends to take to minimize the need for future extensions.

(5) Each certificate holder must implement the corrective action(s) reported in paragraph (a)(4) of this section within 30 days from the date of the extended flight duty period.

(b) For augmented and unaugmented operations, if unforeseen operational circumstances arise after takeoff:

(1) The pilot in command and the certificate holder may extend maximum flight duty periods specified in Tables B or C of this part to the extent necessary to safely land the aircraft at the next destination airport or alternate airport, as appropriate.

(2) An extension of the flight duty period under paragraph (b)(1) of this section of more than 30 minutes may occur only once prior to receiving a rest period described in §117.25(b).

(3) An extension taken under paragraph (b) of this section may exceed the cumulative flight duty period limits specified in 117.23(c).

(4) Each certificate holder must report to the Administrator within 10 days any flight duty period that either exceeded the cumulative flight duty periods specified in §117.23(c), or exceeded the maximum flight duty period limits permitted by Tables B or C of this part by more than 30 minutes. The report must contain a description of the circumstances surrounding the affected flight duty period.
 
What does your FOM say? Mine says "the pilot" prior to takeoff, but "PIC" after takeoff, which means the FO can say no unless the unforeseen circumstance happens while airborne.
 
TWP said:
What does your FOM say? Mine says "the pilot" prior to takeoff, but "PIC" after takeoff, which means the FO can say no unless the unforeseen circumstance happens while airborne.
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Our's is the same way. Both pilot's have to accept an extension.

Although the reg does read PIC.
 
amorris311 said:
What have your reps said about this issue?
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Exactly what I've written. He expressed dismay that the FO cannot refuse or accept an extension, because the arbitration and the 117 language talks PIC.

This is why I brought this up. My dismay is directly correlated to the email about the FSM grievance. The company's position is that they will replace the CA with pay. The FO can bang out fatigued and lose PTO.
 
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