Breastfeeding F9 Pilots Want Privacy at Work

[Avgirl]

The example is not apples and oranges. Both are choices and both need time off from your assigned duty. Companies have accommodated religion by making them clock out, but the company does not have to allow it if it interferes with your normal duty times or assignments and or creates undue safety concerns. So based on that, why is breast feeding not am accommodation that requires time off? These types of lawsuits are shack downs from the ACLU and the company will give in and the minute it's not perfect they will go after them for money damages.

So, if you need to pee in the middle of a flight, is that requiring time off from your duties? Should that not be allowed as well? This is no different. Again, to make it perfectly clear, this is not a monetary suit. It isn't asking for anything extensive at all. Read the complaints. You may learn something new.

Here are the actual complaints:
https://www.aclu.org/legal-document/final-eeoc-charge-shannon-kiedrowski
https://www.aclu.org/legal-document/final-eeoc-charge-randi-freyer
https://www.aclu.org/legal-document/final-eeoc-charge-brandy-beck
https://www.aclu.org/legal-document/final-eeoc-charge-erin-zielinski

 

[gne in prog]

Just buy milk at a store?

You literally have no idea what you're talking about. Refer to Doug's earlier post.

I wonder what kind of milk he'd recommend. 2%, whole, maybe a vanilla almond or lactose free? Probably depends on the kid.

 

[BWER]

All I'm saying is it's good to have an XY chromosome. Isn't it? Nature blessed us well, didn't it? We can just be like a bee, and fly from flower to flower and pollinate it and dip out and be done. Done! And not have to necessarily be too involved with the after effect consequences too much after spreading our seed around. Because we are men. Go ahead now and beat upon your chest like King Kong, knuckle draggers. Awesome, isn't it? Let me just grab a hold of my BBC, and hold on real tight and hang on while saying and sing the mighty praises to high holy Jesus. Hallelujah. Amen!

I mean we don't have to deal with all those the annoying body, and hormonal changes. Retaining water, and body fat. The constant urination, the feelings of uncomfort FOR NINE months. The difficulty of sleep. Oh and the really big one, delivery. And I'm sure that I left out several others that they deal with, for raising YOUR CHILDREN!!! BUT WAIT... IT'S NOT OVER!!! ( said in my best, Matthew Lilliard's voice from Scream) They still have to take care of that baby afterwards too.

Women they're not like men, who can just drop a load, literally. And just go back to work so easy. Where as in a man's case he doesn't necessarily have to worry about how dropping his seed will, affect his career progression. Then there's the gender norm and societal issues, men are viewed as the providers. So it's culturally okay for them to go back out into the workforce, easy-peasy without even a second thought. Because he has to kill that Tyrannosaurs and bring it home, and it's his wives triple duty to cook it up for him. While keeping the house clean, and tending to a man's offspring.

I think as a man a lot of you here have no clue what you're talking about. Because you're dealing with things that you can never possibly ever understand, for the simple fact that God "blessed" you with a cock and an XY chromosome. And many maybe even myself included. We have no idea, just how good it is that we have it.

But I'm sure that many of you would be out here singing a Negro spirituals about how we shall overcome, someday. If the situation was reversed, and it was men biologically that assumed the maternal parenting role like a few other species in nature. I would say talk what you know, but you guys already are. You know nothing of the many perils of being a women, and a wife and a mother.

Because you have no clue. No f'ing idea what it is to be a women and have to deal with all the societal pressures that come along with that. How culturally women are expected to sacrifice their futures, their hopes and dreams for their husbands aspirations. And are to be quiet, and stay in the background to be the foundation of a man's success, and future career progression. A women is supposed to be the silent, smile and be wind beneath his wings. And how it can negatively affect their own rise in their career progression, if they want to have it all. Children, a husband and a career. Or how women are expected to just bury their femininity, and blend in, in the workplace and pretend to just be one of the boys. To be able to rise up to eventually bang their head on the glass ceiling. Then when they do, they're demeaned and accused of sleeping their way to the top, and not getting their on their own merits.Or being a righteous man-hating, ball busting bitch.

So reach down dudes, way down between your legs and grab your dicks in hand. Tap your Ruby slippers together three times, with your eyes closed, and say it with me now.

There's nothing like being a man. There's nothing like being a man. There's nothing like being a man!

Drone bees don't do •, it's the female workers that keep a hive going. Guys just sit around and eat all day....till they either mate and die or get kicked out in the fall and die.

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[SFLAX]

Per the FARs a crew member can leave thier assigned duty station for limited amount of time for pee breaks, accounting for situation. Leaving for 20 minutes to pump or pray is an accommodation . Also, I did not say these suits were monetary, because damage has not been done. But once the accommodate has been set, and the airline or the someone says or does something, then here comes the monetary suit. I don't think you know much about my background and telling me to educate myself. I read the complaints and they are simple accommodation suits, just like to pray or to use a different bathroom or to me closer to a bathroom or etc... I have done this at my business and as a department lead I have been schooled up on this stuff, also I have been in work groups with in my company to figure out accomindations for various employees. Now, let's get to an answer, you seem to have a passion for this, where on an Airbus would you feel comfortable pumping? And would that accomindations would not create an unsafe environment or an undue burden on the business/operation?

 

[Avgirl]

Per the FARs a crew member can leave thier assigned duty station for limited amount of time for pee breaks, accounting for situation. Leaving for 20 minutes to pump or pray is an accommodation . Also, I did not say these suits were monetary, because damage has not been done. But once the accommodate has been set, and the airline or the someone says or does something, then here comes the monetary suit. I don't think you know much about my background and telling me to educate myself. I read the complaints and they are simple accommodation suits, just like to pray or to use a different bathroom or to me closer to a bathroom or etc... I have done this at my business and as a department lead I have been schooled up on this stuff, also I have been in work groups with in my company to figure out accomindations for various employees. Now, let's get to an answer, you seem to have a passion for this, where on an Airbus would you feel comfortable pumping? And would that accomindations would not create an unsafe environment or an undue burden on the business/operation?

Pumping takes five minutes, not twenty. I am not passionate about this, because it doesn't apply to me, yet or possibly ever. But, I don't see the big deal to allow a co-worker the same amount of time it takes for a girl to pee (since we are never as fast as the guys in that regard) to just release some milk. It isn't asking for the baby to ride in the cockpit, just the quick use of a pump. It could literally be done in the cockpit. I have something against lavatories in general, but that could always be an option as well. Certainly passengers are able to do it. Where there is a will, there is a way, but no one should feel guilt from their co-workers based upon their decision to feed their baby that way.

 

[SFLAX]

5 minutes ? Asked wife, and I do remember it taking a little longer depending on the pump. But it can last as short as 15 min to 30 min. So let's move on from time... That is kind of irrelevant in the complaint. They are asking for a location that is not the bathroom or in the open ? So let's go back to the accommodation ? Where in an Airbus can this be done? As this is just like taking a bathroom break, I think that we would not be in this discussion if they felt it was.

 

[Avgirl]

5 minutes ? Asked wife, and I do remember it taking a little longer depending on the pump. But it can last as short as 15 min to 30 min. So let's move on from time... That is kind of irrelevant in the complaint. They are asking for a location that is not the bathroom or in the open ? So let's go back to the accommodation ? Where in an Airbus can this be done? As this is just like taking a bathroom break, I think that we would not be in this discussion if they felt it was.

In their complaint, they asked for an area in the terminal. Not in the plane. Maintenance pumping so that your boobs don't explode can take as little as five minutes. If I was in that situation and on a plane, I probably wouldn't care where I pumped, whether it was next to the other pilot or not. I hear it is very uncomfortable. You aren't getting paid when you aren't flying, right? So, no accommodation needed with the exception of something private. I would imagine if given the choice, and an area that is somewhat private in the airport lounges, female pilots needing to pump wouldn't need to find a place on the plane. In addition, what would be so difficult about modifying the line they get based on length of flight so that they wouldn't need to do that on the plane, but how long are most frontier flights anyway? Good places on an Airbus? Wherever you want to. I have had passengers next to me pump before. Definitely out of the ordinary, but you gotta do what you gotta do.

These are popping up at airports, maybe it would be a simple solution for pilots as well?
http://www.gannett-cdn.com/-mm-/4ad...TATION-SUITE-OUTISDE-COURTESY-MKE-Airport.jpg

 

[SFLAX]

Actually the suit is not only for paid leave, which would be negotiated in the CBA but accommodations at work, so in the plane. Because they are pilots? As for the airport, frontier now needs to be build areas convient to their gates for them? This is where this stuff goes off the hinges, what else can we do to make your choice my economic problem. And I would love to see the lawsuit from all the other pilots that don't get special bidding because they are not women.

 

[Avgirl]

Actually the suit is not only for paid leave, which would be negotiated in the CBA but accommodations at work, so in the plane. Because they are pilots? As for the airport, frontier now needs to be build areas convient to their gates for them? This is where this stuff goes off the hinges, what else can we do to make your choice my economic problem. And I would love to see the lawsuit from all the other pilots that don't get special bidding because they are not women.

Don't they have a break room/pilot lounge? I assume it doesn't offer any privacy since that was suggested in the complaints? This opens up all the other airlines to offer the same thing, if they don't already. I think you are opening up floodgates by exaggerating this a bit more than it needs to be. 99% of employers in the U.S. have areas for nursing mothers to pump without an issue, whether it is an unoccupied office or something else more elaborate. Frankly, pilots who are fathers should be just as outraged about this. If your wife wasn't allowed to breast feed your baby past her maternity leave, you might have issue with it. This is not a huge cost for any employer. Especially if they want to foster a great work environment.

 

[Flying Saluki]

That's assuming that the employer is supportive of that, which they allege Frontier has not been. Most workplaces are happy to make reasonable accommodations with regard to this. Nursing rooms, freezers to store milk, pump storage. This isn't anything out of the ordinary.

Should a surgeon be excused from the O.R. in the middle of an operation so she can go pump?

It's not the activity that makes it extraordinary, it's the setting. There are just some occupations and settings that are not conducive to this sort of activity.

But you're missing the larger picture. It is NOT the employer's responsibility to accommodate their employees' every need and desire. But decades of agitating from the professional Left and the grievance industry has now instilled the entitlement mindset in our society.

By the way: It sounds like Frontier did support their employees. They may a reasonable accommodation for them, but instead of recognizing that and being appreciative of it, the employees filed a lawsuit.

One final note: Employers are allowed to establish Bona Fide Occupational Requirements. I wouldn't be surprised if Frontier and other airlines start looking at that vis-à-vis employee pregnancy. It may apply to ground-based employees, but I could see it applied to Flight Crew.

 

[Avgirl]

Should a surgeon be excused from the O.R. in the middle of an operation so she can go pump?

It's not the activity that makes it extraordinary, it's the setting. There are just some occupations and settings that are not conducive to this sort of activity.

But you're missing the larger picture. It is NOT the employer's responsibility to accommodate their employees' every need and desire. But decades of agitating from the professional Left and the grievance industry has now instilled the entitlement mindset in our society.

By the way: It sounds like Frontier did support their employees. They may a reasonable accommodation for them, but instead of recognizing that and being appreciative of it, the employees filed a lawsuit.

One final note: Employers are allowed to establish Bona Fide Occupational Requirements. I wouldn't be surprised if Frontier and other airlines start looking at that vis-à-vis employee pregnancy. It may apply to ground-based employees, but I could see it applied to Flight Crew.

Depends what kind of surgeon they are. They are typically in a team of other surgeons...and once every four hours isn't unreasonable. The problem here is that it is a health issue. That is where this thing with Frontier hits a nerve. In the complaints, Frontier didn't make accommodations which is why they are in the situation in the first place. I get the up and arms attitude about a lot of this, especially if it was long term, but I highly doubt that this is going to be a serious issue that impacts a ton of pilots. In a few years, people will wonder what the big deal was about allowing this.

 

[dustoff17]

......... Maintenance pumping so that your boobs don't explode can take as little as five minutes..................

OK, this is a little bit over the top!! Since you stated that this doesn't apply to you let me be the first to let you know that boobs won't actually explode. It may be uncomfortable and they may leak, which is why "most" lactating mothers wear nursing pads, but they won't "explode".
Also, this is NOT a 5 min ordeal. This is a 10-20min process.
One thing that needs to be addressed by the airlines and the FFA is an in-flight emergency while the pilot is either distracted by the pumping process, not in the cockpit for an extended duration of time due to pumping, or in extreme discomfort due to the need to pump. None of these are good situations in my book and are the bigger picture for not allowing this to take place in flight.

 

[mastermags]

Pumping takes five minutes, not twenty.

Lol, wut?

 

[Avgirl]

OK, this is a little bit over the top!! Since you stated that this doesn't apply to you let me be the first to let you know that boobs won't actually explode. It may be uncomfortable and they may leak, which is why "most" lactating mothers wear nursing pads, but they won't "explode".
Also, this is NOT a 5 min ordeal. This is a 10-20min process.
One thing that needs to be address by the airlines and the FFS is an in-flight emergency while the pilot is either distracted by the pumping process, not in the cockpit for an extended duration of time due to pumping, or in extreme discomfort due to the need to pump. None of these are good situations in my book and are the bigger picture for not allowing this to take place in flight.

Fully aware of that. Just making a point that if someone needed to relieve pressure, they could in as little as five minutes. Yes, full on pumping would take a bit longer than that, and although it doesn't personally apply to me yet, I have been around my share of friends that went through it. My point was that it wasn't going to be required to happen in flight, but to be able to do that in a private area in the lounge, etc. should take care of any need to do it in the plane.

 

[Bob Ridpath]

OK, this is a little bit over the top!! Since you stated that this doesn't apply to you let me be the first to let you know that boobs won't actually explode. It may be uncomfortable and they may leak, which is why "most" lactating mothers wear nursing pads, but they won't "explode".

Ahh, poor, sad hyperbole: the middle child so often unappreciated as a legitimate figure of speech

 

[Maximilian_Jenius]

Drone bees don't do , it's the female workers that keep a hive going. Guys just sit around and eat all day....till they either mate and die or get kicked out in the fall and die.

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Really trying to see if this is sarcasm or not, or if you're just trolling. You know trying to compare the character traits of a lower life form, that isn't even in our same animal genus. To try to make your point.

 

[BWER]

Really trying to see if this is sarcasm or not, or if you're just trolling. You know trying to compare the character traits of a lower life form, that isn't even in our same animal genus. To try to make your point.

Simply commenting on how you were comparing male bees, when male bees don't do anything you described.

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[Maximilian_Jenius]

Simply commenting on how you were comparing male bees, when male bees don't do anything you described.

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So I guess life is no different with bees then. Women do all the hard work, keeping the home/hive going. While men have it easy(ier), because of the virtue of winning natures lottery and being born with a penis.

 

[High_Alpha]

We can just be like a bee, and fly from flower to flower and pollinate it and dip out and be done. Done! And not have to necessarily be too involved with the after effect consequences too much after spreading our seed around.
I mean we don't have to deal with all those the annoying body, and hormonal changes. They still have to take care of that baby afterwards too.
..it's his wives triple duty to cook it up for him. While keeping the house clean, and tending to a man's offspring.
Because you have no clue. ...

That's a genuinely sad and inadequate view of fatherhood: "Pollinate it and dip out and be done." Also a rather presumptuous denigration of motherhood: "[Having] to take care of that baby afterward," and "tending to a man's offspring." Not being a mother yourself, are you quite sure you're qualified to say it's that debasing? Also, as you so eloquently pointed out, women go through a lot more in the process of procreation--why do you give men all the credit for the "offspring?"

I would think that one thing different between us and "knuckle draggers" is that we consider the rearing of children to include more than training them for physiological survival. That for us, as *non*-knuckle draggers, there is a special privilege and responsibility to inculcate the values, affections, heritage and disciplines of human civilization. I would think that the sacredness of that responsibility might even influence the life choices of both father and mother--maybe even affect their career choices. *Might*--might--even be more important (and perhaps even more rewarding) than "having it all."

 

[Maximilian_Jenius]

That's a genuinely sad and inadequate view of fatherhood: "Pollinate it and dip out and be done." Also a rather presumptuous denigration of motherhood: "[Having] to take care of that baby afterward," and "tending to a man's offspring." Not being a mother yourself, are you quite sure you're qualified to say it's that debasing? Also, as you so eloquently pointed out, women go through a lot more in the process of procreation--why do you give men all the credit for the "offspring?"

I would think that one thing different between us and "knuckle draggers" is that we consider the rearing of children to include more than training them for physiological survival. That for us, as *non*-knuckle draggers, there is a special privilege and responsibility to inculcate the values, affections, heritage and disciplines of human civilization. I would think that the sacredness of that responsibility might even influence the life choices of both father and mother--maybe even affect their career choices. *Might*--might--even be more important (and perhaps even more rewarding) than "having it all."

That was no view of fatherhood. My point was that as a man we can dip our stick, and just go. But a women is saddled with the result of said action.

In the post that I quoted, you said it was a choice. My reply to you was largely regarding your IMO insane choice of words.

Some real world examples if you will.

My cousin in-law married my cousin. They married really young. She didn't want kids, right away. She wanted to start school and become a nurse. They were under incredible pressure from both sides of their families to have children. Even going so far as to be asked, if there was a problem. Society and family expected her to be pregnant the day after the wedding. Sarcasm aside, you get the idea. Well they got pregnant. Then after setting her dreams aside temporarily to please her husband, my cousin. And both her mother, and her mother in-law. She made a deal with my cousin that at the age of five she would start school.

Well, that plan kinda changed. Because he wanted another kid, and he didn't want them too far apart in age. They fought, and fought but she gave in and had a second kid. Postponing school a second time. Promises were made again and again my cousin said he wanted one more, he wanted to really try for a girl this time. They have two boys. She stuck to her guns this time, and already was nursing some deep resentment towards him for pressuring her to have a second child so soon. They eventually divorced. But later reconciled, and she is now working on her DNP (Doctor of Nursing Practice.) They still only have two kids.

Another cousin of mine has a Master in Social Work, and a doctorate in Clinical Psychology. Then she got married, they've been married for like 12-15 years and she's a housewife. A friggin' housewife, with a Psy. D. She wanted to work, I mean she went to school for all those years. But her husband pressured her to stay home, saying that he wanted his kids to not go to daycare and be latch key kids. Her dreams are permanently shelved. She has zero experience in her fields of study. And her husband is now a Junior partner in a Concorde, CA law firm.

You claim that its as simple as a choice. But there are also biological issues in play, it gets more risky for women to bare children, after a certain age. So that's also a consideration as well. Staying with aviation, and a 121 operation which is seniority based. How is a women supposed to balance attaining a seniority number, and a climb to a major with pressure to have children either from self or family? What if she's at a regional or a LCC/ULCC. And she wants to work for a legacy. She needs hours, recency of experience and she needs to attend job fairs, community service, and all that jazz. Hard to do while prego.

My point is that it's easier for you and me, and the majority of posters in this thread as men to do all that, without the same issues. As a women would face, IMO so it's a lot easier for you to say the simply asinine things, that you have and to rationalize it as a something so simple as choice. When YOU as a man don't have to make the same choice/considerations that a women in this field or many others might have to think about when it comes to deciding on family planning.