The future solution to SFO/LAX ATC delays? You'll never believe what happens next!

Even though it says it will replace trains, I'm going to classify this thing as just that...a train. We as Americans just aren't a train people anymore.Maybe something like this WILL take off and become mainstream but I'm not sure either way.
 
Anywhere else I'd say maybe, but in the PRCA, the NIMBYs and enviromentals will keep it from happening.
 
Cptnchia said:
Anywhere else I'd say maybe, but in the PRCA, the NIMBYs and enviromentals will keep it from happening.
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This. If even a fraction of "closer to reality than you think" articles came to pass, we'd have a cure for cancer, fusion plants that fit in the back of a semi and warp drive.

The right of way alone for this thing would doom it to failure.

Richman
 
IMO, biggest waste of money and time for a pet project. They say an approximate cost of $8.5b to build it from LA to San Fran. Yeah, right. With the other options already in place, like trains, busses and flying......This idea is at least 50 years out.
 
poser765 said:
Even though it says it will replace trains, I'm going to classify this thing as just that...a train. We as Americans just aren't a train people anymore.Maybe something like this WILL take off and become mainstream but I'm not sure either way.
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We'd become a nation of chubby chasers and foot fetishers if it was an alternative to sitting in our car for an hour to travel 5-miles. Environment can shift culture rather quickly.
 
Murdoughnut said:
We'd become a nation of chubby chasers and foot fetishers if it was an alternative to sitting in our car for an hour to travel 5-miles. Environment can shift culture rather quickly.
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You say that, but there are places in the country where people are almost religiously attached to having their own personal vehicle. Granted there are places where the opposite is true, as well.

My comment was more aimed towards the idea of "trains" in general. Other parts of the world have a rather robust railway system. We simply do not. Sure we have Amtrak, but it is in very few areas, goes to few places, and it seems like it's always in need of more funding. I used to commute on Amtrak, and the only people I would ever see on it were either A, train enthusiasts, or B, old ladies who thought it would be fun to take the train to Dallas to go to the outlet mall. Rarely did I see people actually riding it for the sake of transportation.
 
Murdoughnut said:
We'd become a nation of chubby chasers and foot fetishers if it was an alternative to sitting in our car for an hour to travel 5-miles. Environment can shift culture rather quickly.
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Not really true. As much as people whinge about it the sitting in traffic experience is almost a sacred rite in the culture of the car.
 
poser765 said:
You say that, but there are places in the country where people are almost religiously attached to having their own personal vehicle. Granted there are places where the opposite is true, as well.

My comment was more aimed towards the idea of "trains" in general. Other parts of the world have a rather robust railway system. We simply do not. Sure we have Amtrak, but it is in very few areas, goes to few places, and it seems like it's always in need of more funding. I used to commute on Amtrak, and the only people I would ever see on it were either A, train enthusiasts, or B, old ladies who thought it would be fun to take the train to Dallas to go to the outlet mall. Rarely did I see people actually riding it for the sake of transportation.
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I'm from the South, and still live in the South, so I get it - trust me. But the 2.5 years I lived in CMH, I took the bus. Ultimately it comes down to consumer calculus, which for me was:
  • Driving on ice sucks
  • Parking at Ohio State was expensive
Those two things were enough to get this Texan to stop driving.

You're right about the Southern culture, but in large part that's been created by an environment that's conducive to cars. We're soon reaching maximum road congestion in Tampa Bay due to heavy growth and economic improvement (#thanksobama). Why aren't people giving up their cars? Because there's no alternative that benefits them for doing so. Yes, we have public buses ... buses that not only sit in the same traffic as your car does, but also stop every 100-yards or so. So the choices are sit in your car for an hour, or sit on a bus. That's an easy one.

The South doesn't have a rail infrastructure that presents an advantage over driving in most places - it's that more than culture impacting things - particularly when you consider towns like this one that are all Midwest and Northeast transplants anyways.
 
I think on demand self driving electric cars are a bigger "threat" to the airline industry than anything else. For example CLE to DCA is about a 6 hour drive as it is at around 70 mph and stopping for gas once. Even with non rev privileges I would almost rather drive it than deal with all the airport hassles. I can't imagine as a paying passenger I would enjoy being molested by the TSA, getting to the airport an hour early, being treated like garbage by the airline, not knowing if anything is going to be on time etc. The whole process takes 4 hours, and the only advantage is that I don't have to figure out what to do with a car when I get to DC (this of course only being an advantage in places like DC or NYC, most of the time a car rental would be in order). If I can pull out my smartphone, order a self driving Uber or whatever, with great wi fi etc and this self driving car can take me at 100+ mph from CLE to DC while I read, surf the internet or whatever else I would much rather do this, AND I get to do it EXACTLY when I want to do it. Either way airlines are going to have to majorly step their service up in the next few years to keep attracting customers. Then again in 20 years we all may be out of a job anyway if airplanes are flying themselves, however if that's the case then I doubt anyone will have a job and much larger issues in society will be afoot.

The problem of course being that an Airbus holds 150 people, so if self driving cars take off we're talking about putting potentially 100+ vehicles on the road to serve the same amount of people over the same route, thus creating more congestion on an already congested interstate highway system.

Hyperloop is fascinating, and it would be interesting to see if all the issues including land rights, unproven technology, costs per mile can be overcome. I've heard that at the moment it would cost ~30 million dollars per mile of track. An Airbus A320 still only costs 90 million dollars, so the economics are not in its favor at the moment, but perhaps if this ceases to become fantasy and scales up + government subsidies it could actually be a "solution".

Hyperloop also does not answer the question of "ok, here I am, downtown in a city with weak or no public transportation options and I need to get to some suburb 11 miles away, how do I make that happen?" at the end of the line it is the same issue that you have with flying or existing high speed rail in a country as spread out as say the United States or Australia. This is a problem that does not need to be solved in my point to point self driving car scenario.
 
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Murdoughnut said:
I'm from the South, and still live in the South, so I get it - trust me. But the 2.5 years I lived in CMH, I took the bus. Ultimately it comes down to consumer calculus, which for me was:
  • Driving on ice sucks
  • Parking at Ohio State was expensive
Those two things were enough to get this Texan to stop driving.

You're right about the Southern culture, but in large part that's been created by an environment that's conducive to cars. We're soon reaching maximum road congestion in Tampa Bay due to heavy growth and economic improvement (#thanksobama). Why aren't people giving up their cars? Because there's no alternative that benefits them for doing so. Yes, we have public buses ... buses that not only sit in the same traffic as your car does, but also stop every 100-yards or so. So the choices are sit in your car for an hour, or sit on a bus. That's an easy one.

The South doesn't have a rail infrastructure that presents an advantage over driving in most places - it's that more than culture impacting things - particularly when you consider towns like this one that are all Midwest and Northeast transplants anyways.
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yeah I agree, and I would love to see things swing more towards a more uniform acceptance of public transportation. Unfortunately I personally believe that is still a long way off...even if the shift is starting to happen.

Concerning the bold...I think THAT is what has caused the culture. Sure, it's the decades of almost having to rely on owning a car (unless you live in one of the more major cities) that has developed the almost instinctual need to have one in certain parts of the country.
 
Soku39 said:
The problem of course being that an airbus holds 150 people, so if self driving cars take off we're talking about putting potentially 100+ vehicles on the road to serve the same amount of people over the same route, thus creating more congestion on an already congested interstate highway system.
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I might be WAY outside the "know" when it comes to traffic and civil engineering, but I have to believe that a overwhelming majority of issues caused by traffic congestion are the result of human error. Replace human drivers with self driving cars and I firmly believe the current roadways would be able to handle a lot more traffic more efficiently.
 
poser765 said:
I might be WAY outside the "know" when it comes to traffic and civil engineering, but I have to believe that a overwhelming majority of issues caused by traffic congestion are the result of human error. Replace human drivers with self driving cars and I firmly believe the current roadways would be able to handle a lot more traffic more efficiently.
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This could be the case, we will begin to find out in the next 5 years, and certainly by the middle of the 2020s.
 
Air travel between SFO/LAX is really getting to be ineffective. It's a 1 hour flight, but it's only the cusp of summer and I'm reading about 1-2 hour TSA lines at both airports. Then you board for your 1 hours flight from SFO-LAX only to shut down on a taxiway for anywhere between 30 minutes and 1.5 hours as is typical at least a few days per week for various reasons. Get to LAX, and getting a gate/into the congested ramps could easily be another 30 minute to 1 hour delay. And this crap happens routinely. Even worse if the flight is late to begin with, which is very often the case with these delays backing up the turns and SFO weather delays inbound.

Despite the NIMBY issues, I feel like this sector is a pretty good case for high speed transport. Unless SFO/LAX become slot controlled and the ATC system is improved to null these issues, the 5-6 hour drive is increasingly appealing to leisure travelers, especially with gas so cheap.
 
Richman said:
This. If even a fraction of "closer to reality than you think" articles came to pass, we'd have a cure for cancer, fusion plants that fit in the back of a semi and warp drive.
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We'd also have the entire wealth of all knowledge ever amassed in human history in the palms of our hands anywhere we go.

Nah, that could never happen. We'd just use it to look at cat videos and porn.
 
ChasenSFO said:
Air travel between SFO/LAX is really getting to be ineffective. It's a 1 hour flight, but it's only the cusp of summer and I'm reading about 1-2 hour TSA lines at both airports. Then you board for your 1 hours flight from SFO-LAX only to shut down on a taxiway for anywhere between 30 minutes and 1.5 hours as is typical at least a few days per week for various reasons. Get to LAX, and getting a gate/into the congested ramps could easily be another 30 minute to 1 hour delay. And this crap happens routinely. Even worse if the flight is late to begin with, which is very often the case with these delays backing up the turns and SFO weather delays inbound.

Despite the NIMBY issues, I feel like this sector is a pretty good case for high speed transport. Unless SFO/LAX become slot controlled and the ATC system is improved to null these issues, the 5-6 hour drive is increasingly appealing to leisure travelers, especially with gas so cheap.
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That's an easy fix; more TSA and more runways.

The cost of putting in a few new security checkpoints and a couple of extra runways is nothing when compared to what a hyperloop will cost.

If LAX had 8 runways and a terminal structure that made sense, it'd never have delays. If SFO had even an extra 2 runways that weren't three feet apart, they'd be able to run parallel ILS approaches and boom, no more delays, and no more, "I know you're IMC, and I know you can't see the traffic...or the airport, but you're cleared for the visual anyway" from NorCal.
 
jtrain609 said:
That's an easy fix; more TSA and more runways.

The cost of putting in a few new security checkpoints and a couple of extra runways is nothing when compared to what a hyperloop will cost.

If LAX had 8 runways and a terminal structure that made sense, it'd never have delays. If SFO had even an extra 2 runways that weren't three feet apart, they'd be able to run parallel ILS approaches and boom, no more delays, and no more, "I know you're IMC, and I know you can't see the traffic...or the airport, but you're cleared for the visual anyway" from NorCal.
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Agree with everything. Of course I also can't help but feel like Delta moving their ops to the north side will help tremendously when it comes to the ground delays getting into and out of a gate.
 
poser765 said:
Agree with everything. Of course I also can't help but feel like Delta moving their ops to the north side will help tremendously when it comes to the ground delays getting into and out of a gate.
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Even though it's a complete pain in the butt to get to and from The Nest, turns out of there are amazing with how easy it is to get in and out. You're right, the north side should produce the same results.
 
We say we are only a car culture, but what choice do we have? People "glued" to their cars because they have no other high quality alternative. Our car culture is mainly a result of the auto manufactures convincing the government to fund and cover our nation with highways everywhere. It put the private, for profit railroads out of the passenger train business, and Amtrak came as a result. A slow train once per day, isn't a high quality alternative, as many of Amtrak's routes are. California's high speed rail is under construction already. I'm cautiously optimistic that it will be complete, and it should provide a one seat ride between LA and SF.

Amtrak's Acela Express on the northeast corridor is not high speed by world standards by any means. It tops out at 150 mph on the corridor and goes 135 mph many other places. It already has over 2/3rd's of the market share between NY and DC, and over half of the share between NY and Boston.
 
jtrain609 said:
Even though it's a complete pain in the butt to get to and from The Nest, turns out of there are amazing with how easy it is to get in and out. You're right, the north side should produce the same results.
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AT WORST it's 10 minutes waiting for the bus+10 minutes to drive over to the box for 20 minutes total. I'll take that over my worst day into the delta. And really, that's just a 2 time thing...start of the trip and the end of it. Operating into 5 and 6 the 20 minutes here 30 minutes there REALLY start to add up over a 4 or 5 day trip.

No, I'll take Eagle flying any day. Well, not to mention my commute is on eagle, so if I play my cards right I don't even have to step foot into the main terminal, and my ride home is never more than a 100 foot walk away.
 
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