Unpaid training legal?

av8tr1 said:
Thanks, still doesn't apply to the original post. While pilots (unfortunately) "MAY" be exempt from overtime that doesn't mean a company can avoid paying them while in attending company indoc training which in all three cases I mentioned above is the case.
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I'm not a lawyer... I think unpaid initial training is legal.

Here's an ABA brief with case history that gives DOL's guidance for the six criteria (the "Walling Factors") for unpaid initial training that @NickH mentioned:

http://www.americanbar.org/content/...law/meetings/2009/ac2009/169.authcheckdam.pdf



"Courts ...have concluded that an employer is not required to compensate employees for post-hire training to acquire skills or certifications that were a required condition of employment."
 
NickH said:
That's not how it works. The balance is between the cost of paying training against the liklihood of being fined and/or sued and the relevant costs.
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I don't think it's that sinister. There's ample case law to support the position that pre employment training need not be paid.
 
When I think of all the money our company (Pt. 135 commuter) has squandered training wannabe pilots who either quit shortly after being hired because they simply couldn't handle the job or had to be fired due to incompetence I can only give thanks that we don't pay for training. It costs a huge amount of money to train someone and all that money goes down the drain when it turns out they can't hack it.

Aviation's not for everyone.
 
gliderboy said:
When I think of all the money our company (Pt. 135 commuter) has squandered training wannabe pilots who either quit shortly after being hired because they simply couldn't handle the job or had to be fired due to incompetence I can only give thanks that we don't pay for training. It costs a huge amount of money to train someone and all that money goes down the drain when it turns out they can't hack it.

Aviation's not for everyone.
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Maybe if you paid for training you wouldn't be stuck with so many bottom feeders.
 
gliderboy said:
When I think of all the money our company (Pt. 135 commuter) has squandered training wannabe pilots who either quit shortly after being hired because they simply couldn't handle the job or had to be fired due to incompetence I can only give thanks that we don't pay for training. It costs a huge amount of money to train someone and all that money goes down the drain when it turns out they can't hack it.

Aviation's not for everyone.
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Driving isn't for everyone either. Somehow this is considered a privilege rather than a requied skill or talent. I guess all it takes is money to be insured though.

I don't mind at all proving I am able to safely fly an aircraft without pay. If it takes me two weeks to prove it, well...I believe that is another topic. They all have a go forward lever, a up lever, a down lever, and left and right lever. By this time the bottom feeders have been washed out. Shouldn't the term bottom feeders only be associated with lawyers? :)
 
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splash said:
I don't mind at all proving I am able to safely fly an aircraft without pay. If it takes me two weeks to prove it, well...I believe that is another topic.
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And a junky little 135 carrier may take 2 weeks to train you to standards assuming good weather, maintenance, as well as aircraft and instructor availability.

What if a plane goes down, instructor gets sick, weather gets bad, etc., and it suddenly takes twice as long? You going to go four weeks without any income?


Better yet, what happens when you go to a better place that actually spends an appropriate amount of time training you rather than just pooping out pilot crap as fast as possible? Are you going to go 6, 8, 12 weeks without a paycheck to "prove you can fly"?
 
JeppUpdater said:
And a junky little 135 carrier may take 2 weeks to train you to standards assuming good weather, maintenance, as well as aircraft and instructor availability.

What if a plane goes down, instructor gets sick, weather gets bad, etc., and it suddenly takes twice as long? You going to go four weeks without any income?


Better yet, what happens when you go to a better place that actually spends an appropriate amoun of time training you rather than just pooping out pilot crap as fast as possible? Are you going to go 6, 8, 12 weeks without a paycheck to "prove you can fly"?
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Heya, what's with the 135 racist statement? 121 ops can't be crapy? :) No no, if it takes me 6 weeks to prove I can fly I shouldn't have a commercial. I believe you read that wrong. As far as learning new systems and specs are concerned... it is a risk on both the pilot and the company financially. I have done many things for others without pay over the years, why change? It doesn't break who I am or what I choose to do. I know I have good moral rather than a crapy conscience to deal with. It's a win win for me. It's a bit like that crapy girl friend that bbelieves she got the best of you. Take what you get and give as much as you can or do nothing and be someone else.
Look, they are teaching you new things for free rather than you paying for the training. Eventually it will pay off in the long run. It shows dedication and good character which is more important than money.
 
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splash said:
Heya, what's with the 135 racist statement? 121 ops can't be crapy? :) No no, if it takes me 6 weeks to prove I can fly I shouldn't have a commercial. I believe you read that wrong. As far as learning new systems and specs are concerned... it is a risk on both the pilot and the company financially. I have done many things for others without pay over the years, why change? It doesn't break who I am or what I choose to do. I know I have good moral rather than a crapy conscience to deal with. It's a win win for me. It's a bit like that crapy girl friend that bbelieves she got the best of you. Take what you get and give as much as you can or do nothing and be someone else.
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It's no risk to the company if they hired a quality candidate. But you can't do that as a bottom feeder that doesn't pay for training.
 
splash said:
Heya, what's with the 135 racist statement? 121 ops can't be crapy? :) No no, if it takes me 6 weeks to prove I can fly I shouldn't have a commercial. I believe you read that wrong. As far as learning new systems and specs are concerned... it is a risk on both the pilot and the company financially. I have done many things for others without pay over the years, why change? It doesn't break who I am or what I choose to do. I know I have good moral rather than a crapy conscience to deal with. It's a win win for me. It's a bit like that crapy girl friend that bbelieves she got the best of you. Take what you get and give as much as you can or do nothing and be someone else.
Look, they are teaching you new things for free rather than you paying for the training. Eventually it will pay off in the long run. It shows dedication and good character which is more important than money.
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I was a 135 CP so I'm pretty sure I'm familiar with crap 135 operations, and there are plenty of them. Definitely more than crap 121 operations.

Six weeks has nothing to do with the time it takes you to "prove you can fly". It's about not rushing quality training so you actually learn stuff, versus doing the absolute minimum required to get by and then kick you out the door to go risk your life for peanuts (again, crap 135 here).

You say you've been doing things for pay without years? Great...way to lower the bar across the industry. The guy who rides along right seat "just for time"? Where does it stop? Now the company needs you to exceed duty time juuuuust a little bit to make this trip work...all good, right?

The company isn't "teaching things for free" out of their good nature. It's things that are required to be taught in order to be a safe, proficient pilot. That is required training and not optional, and you're an employee receiving it. You should be compensated (and traveled, housed, etc) during.
 
kids...save it for mommy! How about a smiley... :)

CONFIDENCE is what it is about. Quality training, eh? OK ..I'm glad ya feel that way.

I remember being pampered too.
 
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Look, all I'm saying is to take some happy pills and find something else to cry about, no pay training, so what! It's not like you lose half of everything you own, people get married for that!

Try not to blame others for your crappy inability to learn in the field you chose to be in. And we all should be rich too, eh? Where the hell is this damn culture going?

Stick it in a glory hole and stop crying about your shoe laces coming untied. Need more of these :-)?
 
splash said:
Look, all I'm saying is to take some happy pills and find something else to cry about, no pay training, so what! It's not like you lose half of everything you own, people get married for that!

Try not to blame others for your crappy inability to learn in the field you chose to be in. And we all should be rich too, eh? Where the hell is this damn culture going?

Stick it in a glory hole and stop crying about your shoe laces coming untied. Need more of these :-)?
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Ok, i'll bite. What scumbag operator are you chief pilot for?
 
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