Slant Alpha or Slant Papa

Ian_J

Ian_J

Hubschrauber Flieger
Staff member
You have an aircraft that has a Tacan receiver, a VOR receiver, an ADF, and a Mode C transponder. You have no IFR capable GPS. Are you a slant A or P?

In the AIM, the old Table 5-1-3 listed /P as "Tacan Only." Now it is simply "Tacan." The table appears hierarchical - equipment capabilities seem to increase the further down the No RVSM table you go. Besides a definition of "Tacan Only" in the PCG, I can't find a reference if /P means "only a TACAN on board" or not.

Speaking of all this - /A or /P sucks. ATC still tries to clear you direct to fixes and/or airports regardless of what you file. And I'm based at an airport without any ground based Navaids and only a a sparse amount of feeders into the approach structure.
 
Derg said:
Gingers don't fare well with acronyms.

I think the answer is just /A if you're primarily doing civilian work. Maybe?
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No idea. I just today discovered my Chinook guys were blasting around filing /P while my Medevac Blackhawk guys were doing /A. Both aircraft have the same equipment. An IP fight ensued. Manuals were quoted. AIMs were thrown at heads. Mothers were cursed. Total carnage.

@Nark - what do you guys file?
 
MikeFavinger said:
No idea. I just today discovered my Chinook guys were blasting around filing /P while my Medevac Blackhawk guys were doing /A. Both aircraft have the same equipment. An IP fight ensued. Manuals were quoted. AIMs were thrown at heads. Mothers were cursed. Total carnage.

@Nark - what do you guys file?
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"Riddle Fight", eh? :)
 
If you read the description of each code, you'll see VOR is not listed under any of them. As far as ATC is concerned, we assume if you are filed on an IFR flight plan, you have the basic equipment to fly an IFR route. If you file /X it is still assumed you can fly an airway. Therefore I would file /P to let the controller know you are TACAN capable. It will automatically be assumed you can fly an airway. Chances are they won't even know what /P is without looking at the table or asking you. No one is going to throw a TACAN only navaid into your route unless you request it, and we don't care if you are using the TACAN or VOR portion of a VORTAC as long as you are flying the correct radial.


Edit: if there is that much of a concern call the local FSDO or perhaps the military contact at your local center.
 
mikecweb said:
PCG?
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Pilot/Controller Glossary

Mike, I see your problem. It used to say "TACAN only" but I suspect it always meant the same thing - TACAN navigational capability.

If you don't get a definitive answer (I don;t have one), I'd go with "it doesn't matter." As the AIM puts it,

ATC issues clearances based on filed suffixes. Pilots should determine the appropriate suffix based upon desired services and/or routing. For example, if a desired route/procedure requires GPS, a pilot should file /G even if the aircraft also qualifies for other suffixes. (Italis in the AIM)​

IOW, if your system allows you to fly a VOR/DME approach and civilian ATC is more familiar with /A that /P, I'd just go with /A. Besides, if you are going into a towered airport, there's usually going to to an ILS or at least a LOC; if non-towered, you get to tell ATC which approach you want. So I really don't think it matters.

MikeFavinger said:
Speaking of all this - /A or /P sucks. ATC still tries to clear you direct to fixes and/or airports regardless of what you file. And I'm based at an airport without any ground based Navaids and only a a sparse amount of feeders into the approach structure.
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Yeah, seems they don't even pay much attention to the codes. Up to us to say when we're unable.
 
We clear you direct because /A's and other non-gps are so rare we honestly just don't notice til you say you can't go direct lol. File whichever you want, we'll try and send you direct, you'll say you can't, we'll put you on a heading with a "when able direct"
 
greg1016 said:
If you read the description of each code, you'll see VOR is not listed under any of them. As far as ATC is concerned, we assume if you are filed on an IFR flight plan, you have the basic equipment to fly an IFR route. If you file /X it is still assumed you can fly an airway. Therefore I would file /P to let the controller know you are TACAN capable. It will automatically be assumed you can fly an airway. Chances are they won't even know what /P is without looking at the table or asking you. No one is going to throw a TACAN only navaid into your route unless you request it, and we don't care if you are using the TACAN or VOR portion of a VORTAC as long as you are flying the correct radial.


Edit: if there is that much of a concern call the local FSDO or perhaps the military contact at your local center.
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That makes sense and is in line with my own thoughts. The only thing that threw me was the older description of Tacan "Only." Thanks!

(There's not a real concern - was being hyperbolic. :) It's just military IPs doing their thing.)
 
greg1016 said:
If you read the description of each code, you'll see VOR is not listed under any of them. As far as ATC is concerned, we assume if you are filed on an IFR flight plan, you have the basic equipment to fly an IFR route. If you file /X it is still assumed you can fly an airway. Therefore I would file /P to let the controller know you are TACAN capable. It will automatically be assumed you can fly an airway. Chances are they won't even know what /P is without looking at the table or asking you. No one is going to throw a TACAN only navaid into your route unless you request it, and we don't care if you are using the TACAN or VOR portion of a VORTAC as long as you are flying the correct radial.
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LOL. I guess that confirms what I said about using the one that gets you what you can do and is more familiar to AIC :D)
 
MidlifeFlyer said:
Pilot/Controller Glossary

Mike, I see your problem. It used to say "TACAN only" but I suspect it always meant the same thing - TACAN navigational capability.

If you don't get a definitive answer (I don;t have one), I'd go with "it doesn't matter." As the AIM puts it,

ATC issues clearances based on filed suffixes. Pilots should determine the appropriate suffix based upon desired services and/or routing. For example, if a desired route/procedure requires GPS, a pilot should file /G even if the aircraft also qualifies for other suffixes. (Italis in the AIM)​

IOW, if your system allows you to fly a VOR/DME approach and civilian ATC is more familiar with /A that /P, I'd just go with /A. Besides, if you are going into a towered airport, there's usually going to to an ILS or at least a LOC; if non-towered, you get to tell ATC which approach you want. So I really don't think it matters.


Yeah, seems they don't even pay much attention to the codes. Up to us to say when we're unable.
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Makes sense - thanks.
 
MidlifeFlyer said:
LOL. I guess that confirms what I said about using the one that gets you what you can do and is more familiar to AIC :D)
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Yep, military always has weird /codes no one knows what is what. A lot of the ones I saw often were /L anyway after the consolidation. Radar has a cheat sheet posted next to the scope and tower has a cheat sheet posted under the counter at flight data, it's really no big deal. No one is gonna get violated over whether can or cannot accept direct.
 
Derg said:
So like… the 'readers comments' section of an online news article. Anyone lose it and use the word "Obama"? :)

But seriously, I'd say /A.
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Oh, but @MikeD will appreciate another topic that made heads explode. I explained to the group that effective 1 Oct that, most likely, IFR flight plans willl have to be in the International Flight Plan Format, thus making our far-too-revered DD 175s obsolete for instruments.

Boom!
 
mikecweb said:
Better question, when are you going to stop repelling the ground and come fly airplanes again?
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When you can pay me as much cheddar as I'm making now, trick!

Seriously, I'd love too. I looked into some corporate type gigs a while back - one with your old outfit and one at CKs - they didn't pan out. I could retire from the military, but won't receive a payout until I'm 60 so a regional isn't really enough pay-wise. Know anyone who wants a dual rated dude?
 
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