Cage Match! A-10 vs. F-35

alaskadrifter said:
Is loiter time not a big deal?
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Here's the problem.... Loiter time is a crutch.

I can't tell you how many battle space owners (read Army Brigade commanders) who simply view station time as a given and the toys to be there's. The idea of having to actively plan and maintain a timeline of when and where objectives will be met and forces like indirect fires, combat enablers like engineers, or low density high value CAS will be employed is something that most people in the mid grades simply never had to deal or train with and don't understand. CAS in an near peer or peer engagement isn't going to be something you just leave overhead in a stack of airplanes waiting like a taxi que. it's going to be a no kidding events driven timeline of X happens, then Y, and then when I really expect I need it I get CAS on station for 20 minutes while we do Z.

The other problem is sustainability of the logistics train and cruising speed. The Hawg is great in a Desert storm type scenario where they can be just down the road from airfields and there are umpteen dozen tankers up just to keep them full. Start spacing out the Lilly pads by decreasing the number of tanker orbits or range of available airfields like say the Pacific and the Hawgs low speed cruise actually ends up with an airplane that spends most of its time driving to and from a tanker to give you the same or less loiter time than a faster horse like Viper or Mudhen.
 
MikeD said:
Oh I agree with you. There is a very good use for the A-10 still that we don't yet have a viable replacement for: Rescue support/escort of Combat Search and Rescue operations. While many airframes, as mentioned, do the CAS job; only two do this particular job: the A-10 and the F-16.
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FWIW, I was a trained and certified "Sandy 3" in the F-15E.
 
Maurus said:
If you own the skies already
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Unfortunately, this can't be taken for granted, which is the precise problem with hanging so much on the A-10.

The Hog, even in its prime back in the Cold War, wasn't going to survive that long in a denied environment against a 3rd-generation and 4th-generation air-to-air threat, and an 1980s Soviet SAM threat. It would be positively slaughtered in a denied environment today (right along side F-15s, F-16s, and F-18s).
 
Hacker15e said:
Unfortunately, this can't be taken for granted, which is the precise problem with hanging so much on the A-10.

The Hog, even in its prime back in the Cold War, wasn't going to survive that long in a denied environment against a 3rd-generation and 4th-generation air-to-air threat, and an 1980s Soviet SAM threat. It would be positively slaughtered in a denied environment today (right along side F-15s, F-16s, and F-18s).
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Very much the same on our end. You start briefing Gauntlet and Greyhounds on the battlefield and all us survivability guys turn to the command and just go "nuke the site from Orbit it's the only way to be sure."

Of course nobody listens to use since we aren't IPs so we can't know everything....
 
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MikeD said:
They doing a full Sandy program with the F-15E now? Or is still just A-10 and F-16 that do the full?
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It was a test (?) program back about 10 years ago to study the feasibility of giving the RESCORT job to the Strike Eagle. Ultimately they decided against it, but not before a group of us came out to Nellis and were taught by the Hog WIC instructors how to do it and fully qual'd as 3s and 4s.
 
Hacker15e said:
It was a test (?) program back about 10 years ago to study the feasibility of giving the RESCORT job to the Strike Eagle. Ultimately they decided against it, but not before a group of us came out to Nellis and were taught by the Hog WIC instructors how to do it and fully qual'd as 3s and 4s.
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3 and 4 are the easier gigs, although with escorting helos, it can become difficult to navigate for them and direct them around as needed. With V-22s, I can see it being much more easy. Still, it can and is done with fast movers when needed. Not bad to at least have guys trained in it, in case they're the only ones available at a given time.
 
Hacker15e said:
It was a test (?) program back about 10 years ago to study the feasibility of giving the RESCORT job to the Strike Eagle. Ultimately they decided against it, but not before a group of us came out to Nellis and were taught by the Hog WIC instructors how to do it and fully qual'd as 3s and 4s.
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Sounds like the FAC(A) syllabus for Apache that died in the womb before anybody could try it.

Went nowhere fast since no way an Active duty Army battalion was going to spend the money sending people and aircraft TDY to keep the currency up.
 
MikeD said:
3 and 4 are the easier gigs, although with escorting helos, it can become difficult to navigate for them and direct them around as needed. With V-22s, I can see it being much more easy. Still, it can and is done with fast movers when needed. Not bad to at least have guys trained in it, in case they're the only ones available at a given time.
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Arguably the far more limiting factor in CSAR is the fact we are using Helicopters vs what kind of jets we use.

Doesn't matter how hard we try a conventional Helo isn't going to get past 120 ground realistically. It is the anchor in the equation until FVL with some kind of enhanced self protection comes on line.
 
Can we have a little humor or no?
ZYXR2cr.jpg

BRRRRRRRRRRRT!
 
alaskadrifter said:
Is loiter time not a big deal?
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I can be a big deal. The shorter the time on station, the more tankers you need, etc. The logistics of sustained operations are really staggering. We can say that an aircraft is "cheap" to operate, but the value of the aircraft and its mission to strategic objectives is another story. Deterrence is always tough to measure - you don't know if it worked a lot or just a little bit. The science of exactly how many F-35s or F-22s could deter an adversary is not exactly accurate or predictable. In some cases, an aircraft might be a technology platform for cool stuff that is later refined and made into a much less expensive gadget to go on a cheaper airframe.
 
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