Flight Time or Instructor Pilot

melltimejr

melltimejr

That's what she said
Like many of us on here, I'm currently at a regional and hoping to get the call up to the big leagues sooner rather than later. I've really began to turn up the heat on advocating for myself in terms of networking, going to job fairs, going through my apps with a fine tooth comb, volunteering, etc. There seems to be a general consensus out there that the best advice is to more or less do the above things that I mentioned and you will get a call...eventually.

One dilemma that has presented itself at my current airline is the opportunity to become an instructor pilot. Now, having attended hiring seminars, I know that being in the training department checks off one very large, competitive check box. However, I have also gotten the impression that "training department" really means "line check airman" or at least the preference is very skewed in that direction. Check airman positions are very competitive here, where instructor positions seem more easily obtainable.

So, my question, would it be a smart move to sacrifice flight time for an instructor position? At my current shop being an instructor more or less means that I'd never fly. The training department is swamped and the instructors who are also line pilots basically only do enough flying to stay current. Pertaining to basically not flying, I know that places like Delta only have a 1,500 hour requirement with no PIC requirement, but realistically, I don't think many, if any, 1500 hour guys are getting a call.

As it applies to me, I'm currently at about 300 PIC and 3,000TT. My thought was to get to 1,000 PIC (I know 1,000 isn't the benchmark that it used to be, but it does still seem to be a threshold) and then look into being an instructor pilot if I still haven't gotten a call. The additional 700 PIC that I'd need to accumulate though would take about a year, and a year is a long time in this hiring environment, especially if checking off the training department box, albeit not as a check airman, would warrant a call much sooner.

So what say you? Fly the line? Try to get a sim instructor position? Hold out for check airman? Thanks for the feedback...
 
How much TPIC flight time are you currently getting and how much would you get if you joined the raining department as an IP? Also, and this is just my .02, lots of pilots have TPIC, far fewer have IP or LCA on their resumes. I think it would make you a more attractive and well-rounded candidate.
 
melltimejr said:
Like many of us on here, I'm currently at a regional and hoping to get the call up to the big leagues sooner rather than later. I've really began to turn up the heat on advocating for myself in terms of networking, going to job fairs, going through my apps with a fine tooth comb, volunteering, etc. There seems to be a general consensus out there that the best advice is to more or less do the above things that I mentioned and you will get a call...eventually.

One dilemma that has presented itself at my current airline is the opportunity to become an instructor pilot. Now, having attended hiring seminars, I know that being in the training department checks off one very large, competitive check box. However, I have also gotten the impression that "training department" really means "line check airman" or at least the preference is very skewed in that direction. Check airman positions are very competitive here, where instructor positions seem more easily obtainable.

So, my question, would it be a smart move to sacrifice flight time for an instructor position? At my current shop being an instructor more or less means that I'd never fly. The training department is swamped and the instructors who are also line pilots basically only do enough flying to stay current. Pertaining to basically not flying, I know that places like Delta only have a 1,500 hour requirement with no PIC requirement, but realistically, I don't think many, if any, 1500 hour guys are getting a call.

As it applies to me, I'm currently at about 300 PIC and 3,000TT. My thought was to get to 1,000 PIC (I know 1,000 isn't the benchmark that it used to be, but it does still seem to be a threshold) and then look into being an instructor pilot if I still haven't gotten a call. The additional 700 PIC that I'd need to accumulate though would take about a year, and a year is a long time in this hiring environment, especially if checking off the training department box, albeit not as a check airman, would warrant a call much sooner.

So what say you? Fly the line? Try to get a sim instructor position? Hold out for check airman? Thanks for the feedback...
Click to expand...

I've said it before, but it bears repeating. Evaluate a job on it's own merits, not on where you think it might take you. Become an instructor because you think you can contribute to the professional development of your fellow airmen, not because you are trying to "check a box" on the application.
 
NO

Fly.

Period.

Don't let the stories of guys getting 200+ hours a month suck you in because you'll be lucky to get 200 hours a year of real flight time. Last I heard there haven't been any sim instructors hired anywhere lately straight from the school house (except 2 to middle eastern carriers), alot went back to the line to get time for LCA. Wait for LCA.
 
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chrisreedrules said:
How much TPIC flight time are you currently getting and how much would you get if you joined the raining department as an IP? Also, and this is just my .02, lots of pilots have TPIC, far fewer have IP or LCA on their resumes. I think it would make you a more attractive and well-rounded candidate.
Click to expand...

Currently getting 60-80 hours TPIC monthly. That'd likely go down to 0-15 from what I've heard as an instructor.
I agree that it'd make the resume more exclusive, which seems good, just hard to gauge if the flight time sacrifice would be worth it...it's not my opinion that matters, but rather the opinion of the computer/human at a legacy carrier. So far, seems like the prevailing advice is keep accumulating flight time and hope for LCA...
 
melltimejr said:
Currently getting 60-80 hours TPIC monthly. That'd likely go down to 0-15 from what I've heard as an instructor.
I agree that it'd make the resume more exclusive, which seems good, just hard to gauge if the flight time sacrifice would be worth it...it's not my opinion that matters, but rather the opinion of the computer/human at a legacy carrier. So far, seems like the prevailing advice is keep accumulating flight time and hope for LCA...
Click to expand...

It's about QOL and what works for you. Sim instructor doesn't appear to be the fast track to a legacy for the time being, but doesn't mean it's a wrong move if it's something you want to do. Just don't do it solely for fluffing up your resume. You'll be disappointed.
 
melltimejr said:
Currently getting 60-80 hours TPIC monthly. That'd likely go down to 0-15 from what I've heard as an instructor.
I agree that it'd make the resume more exclusive, which seems good, just hard to gauge if the flight time sacrifice would be worth it...it's not my opinion that matters, but rather the opinion of the computer/human at a legacy carrier. So far, seems like the prevailing advice is keep accumulating flight time and hope for LCA...
Click to expand...

Having done both the line check airman and sim instructor thing, I agree with the notion that you shouldn't do either one of them if the only reason is to check boxes on an application. To do the job well it requires quite a bit of effort and dedication, especially in today's hiring environment where the recruiting folks are letting most applicants in the door and seeing how it shakes out in training. The first question I ask someone who shows interest in joining the training department is "why do you want to do it?" Their answer to that question weighs heavily as to whether I will recommend them or not.

Check airman does seem to be more valuable to the majors than sim instructor. There's a box on airlineapps for check airman but not for instructor. That being said it doesn't distinguish between line vs sim check airman, so you may want to see what the pathway/timeline is from sim instructor to sim check airman if you're interested in doing the instructor thing for its own sake. Depending on your airline, it might be a quicker/easier pathway to line check airman if you go through the sim instructing first. At my shop we usually can't get those who want to do the line check airman thing into the sim at all, but it is looked upon favorably to do some time in the sim first. So it might make you more competitive for the line check airman position if you were to do the sim thing first, but that will be highly specific to whoever runs the program at your shop.

I still think sim instructing does something to set you apart from the crowd. It shows career advancement, dedication and leadership. Check airman is just a higher level of qualification and usually comes with vetting/approval from the FAA themselves (at least at my place the FAA does all the check airman observations), hence the greater emphasis/value placed on it.

As you've already picked up on, the downside to the sim is there is not as much flight time whereas with line check airman you accomplish time building and check the appropriate boxes at the same time.

Just my $0.02
 
ClarkGriswold said:
For? There's been plenty getting hired at majors/legacies with that time from his carrier.
Click to expand...

I think he was referring to becoming an instructor pilot. At 300 hours TPIC, the OP is probably asking more questions than he is answering, and not really ready to be an instructor.
 
Flying Saluki said:
I think he was referring to becoming an instructor pilot. At 300 hours TPIC, the OP is probably asking more questions than he is answering, and not really ready to be an instructor.
Click to expand...
Gotcha, his carrier doesn't have that luxury unfortunately...200 TPIC is the mins for LCA. With people gettig hired below that, atleast a few months ago. Just now people are getting close to 1000
 
I spent a few years as a sim instructor and sim check airman at my previous airline before moving to a legacy. I mostly agree with the other posters on the "value" of instructor time. But, in some ways, I think it's slightly more valuable than some of the other posters indicate--with some big caveats.

First, in the hierarchy of value to a future employer, I don't know of anything the trumps LINE check airman status. It is, arguably, the single most valuable "feather in the cap" that you can accumulate at a regional. However, that status comes with a huge liability--sometimes on a daily basis if you're doing lots of new-hire IOE as almost every regional airline is. It's also a much higher exposure to the FAA if they're observing fed rides in lieu of a company designee. I trained the LCAs in the sim and I worked with them on a regular basis and know all the stories. Frankly, for me, it was a liability that I just wasn't interested in assuming. For me, the cost vs benefit just didn't add up.

When I went to the training department, I had lots and lots of total time and a couple of thousand 121 PIC and a few type ratings. For me, more total time or PIC wasn't adding anything to the resume. So I didn't have to weigh that factor. I think that your plan of getting to the 1,000 PIC is the right idea. But, I also think that you have to really take some time to decide if teaching is what you WANT to do. It's okay that a benefit of the job might be that it's a resume enhancer, but please don't do it for that reason alone. Regional training departments and management are full of guys that no longer want to fly and are simply there to avoid flying.

You'll never do your students justice if you don't really LOVE teaching. If you were a CFI and loved it, you'll probably love sim instructing. It's a lot more than running the instructor's panel. And you have to be prepared and ready to not pass someone on a lesson or check ride and be able to stomach the potential career implications for those individuals. Fortunately, I only ever failed two people on check rides, but it was one of the most gut wrenching decisions I've had to make--even though I knew 100% what I HAD to do.

You also sometimes find yourself interjected into students' personal issues. I did some Review Board work and had to talk to students with all kinds of personal issues. From divorces and custody issues, to financial problems. It's rewarding when you're able to advocate for someone to get some time off followed by more training. But you do see the very rare occasions when someone just can't make it and you're suddenly part of that severance process. Never fun.

The reasons that I think that sim instructing is valuable are:

You'll never know an SOP, SOPA/SMAC, FOM, VOL 1--whatever your company calls it better. It's amazing how much you learn instructing, digging for answers to questions, and evaluating students.

If your department was like mine, you get to do a fair amount of seat support which makes you even sharper.

You get exposure to lots of people within the company. Depending on what additional roles you might assume within the department, you will probably be crossing paths with folks from Flight Standards, the CPO, etc. It's SOMETIMES a good thing when you're on a first name basis with the CPO and DO.

The same can be said for the FAA. I was lucky enough to do some training for some guys from the FSDO when they were getting typed. They were good guys and it helped me out when I became a sim check airman candidate.

I had the opportunity to do some curriculum development and was a Subject Mater Expert in some areas. It was fun to be part of a process that I felt was bettering the airline's way of training.

The experience was nice to have as a fall-back if I lose my medical, etc.

It made sim training at my current airline a heck of a lot easier. You learn the game and what makes a sim event or check ride look polished. A few instructors even asked me if I had been an instructor at my previous airline and commented that they could tell I had.

The big caveat to all the above is that most of those are "soft skills" that probably don't get an app pulled from a pile or trigger any great scoring by an automated system--like the LCA box might. They're probably great experiences for interview stories and really great if I chose to move into training someday at my current airline or a place like FSI.

At the end of the day, the benefits of doing the job probably aren't enough to make up for some of the hardships (0100 sim times come to mind) unless you really have a passion for doing it. You'd be doing yourself and your students a disservice if you were only doing it for resume fodder. If you are passionate about instructing, then it's a great way to gain some of the experiences I outlined--albeit some of those are pretty intangible and only what you make of them. I just don't think it's the golden ticket to a legacy interview.

Good luck.
 
obx said:
I spent a few years as a sim instructor and sim check airman at my previous airline before moving to a legacy. I mostly agree with the other posters on the "value" of instructor time. But, in some ways, I think it's slightly more valuable than some of the other posters indicate--with some big caveats.

First, in the hierarchy of value to a future employer, I don't know of anything the trumps LINE check airman status. It is, arguably, the single most valuable "feather in the cap" that you can accumulate at a regional. However, that status comes with a huge liability--sometimes on a daily basis if you're doing lots of new-hire IOE as almost every regional airline is. It's also a much higher exposure to the FAA if they're observing fed rides in lieu of a company designee. I trained the LCAs in the sim and I worked with them on a regular basis and know all the stories. Frankly, for me, it was a liability that I just wasn't interested in assuming. For me, the cost vs benefit just didn't add up.

When I went to the training department, I had lots and lots of total time and a couple of thousand 121 PIC and a few type ratings. For me, more total time or PIC wasn't adding anything to the resume. So I didn't have to weigh that factor. I think that your plan of getting to the 1,000 PIC is the right idea. But, I also think that you have to really take some time to decide if teaching is what you WANT to do. It's okay that a benefit of the job might be that it's a resume enhancer, but please don't do it for that reason alone. Regional training departments and management are full of guys that no longer want to fly and are simply there to avoid flying.

You'll never do your students justice if you don't really LOVE teaching. If you were a CFI and loved it, you'll probably love sim instructing. It's a lot more than running the instructor's panel. And you have to be prepared and ready to not pass someone on a lesson or check ride and be able to stomach the potential career implications for those individuals. Fortunately, I only ever failed two people on check rides, but it was one of the most gut wrenching decisions I've had to make--even though I knew 100% what I HAD to do.

You also sometimes find yourself interjected into students' personal issues. I did some Review Board work and had to talk to students with all kinds of personal issues. From divorces and custody issues, to financial problems. It's rewarding when you're able to advocate for someone to get some time off followed by more training. But you do see the very rare occasions when someone just can't make it and you're suddenly part of that severance process. Never fun.

The reasons that I think that sim instructing is valuable are:

You'll never know an SOP, SOPA/SMAC, FOM, VOL 1--whatever your company calls it better. It's amazing how much you learn instructing, digging for answers to questions, and evaluating students.

If your department was like mine, you get to do a fair amount of seat support which makes you even sharper.

You get exposure to lots of people within the company. Depending on what additional roles you might assume within the department, you will probably be crossing paths with folks from Flight Standards, the CPO, etc. It's SOMETIMES a good thing when you're on a first name basis with the CPO and DO.

The same can be said for the FAA. I was lucky enough to do some training for some guys from the FSDO when they were getting typed. They were good guys and it helped me out when I became a sim check airman candidate.

I had the opportunity to do some curriculum development and was a Subject Mater Expert in some areas. It was fun to be part of a process that I felt was bettering the airline's way of training.

The experience was nice to have as a fall-back if I lose my medical, etc.

It made sim training at my current airline a heck of a lot easier. You learn the game and what makes a sim event or check ride look polished. A few instructors even asked me if I had been an instructor at my previous airline and commented that they could tell I had.

The big caveat to all the above is that most of those are "soft skills" that probably don't get an app pulled from a pile or trigger any great scoring by an automated system--like the LCA box might. They're probably great experiences for interview stories and really great if I chose to move into training someday at my current airline or a place like FSI.

At the end of the day, the benefits of doing the job probably aren't enough to make up for some of the hardships (0100 sim times come to mind) unless you really have a passion for doing it. You'd be doing yourself and your students a disservice if you were only doing it for resume fodder. If you are passionate about instructing, then it's a great way to gain some of the experiences I outlined--albeit some of those are pretty intangible and only what you make of them. I just don't think it's the golden ticket to a legacy interview.

Good luck.
Click to expand...


Thanks for writing that up! Insights and advice certainly appreciated!
 
I say do what you have always had your heart set on. If you really really enjoy teaching and career advancement isn't paramount, take the instructor gig.

However don't just do it for the resume. You'll only grow to resent your own decision when it doesn't turn out the way you want it to.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
 
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