Your lanyard and you...

ClarkGriswold said:
You're joking about NWA/Republic right? That went terrible and they had a HUGE fence from bidding any plane NWA brought to the table before a former NWA pilot. There was alot of animosity between the 2 groups.
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No, I'm not joking. They did not lose their seniority in the end and are now the most senior pilots at Delta.


TP
 
Seggy said:
I see what you are saying.

When I give to the PAC I don't look at it such as if I give $1000.00 a year I will get back $1200.00. I give the money to allow us to have access. I think what nicely illustrates this is the NAI fight from a few years ago. While I didn't see a direct monetary return for the money I gave that year, the fact that NAI isn't flying to the United States is invaluable to me.
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There was an article in USA today the other day that said NAI Is flying to Paris from Orlando, LAX and one other place starting later this year.
 
learhawkerbe400 said:
There was an article in USA today the other day that said NAI Is flying to Paris from Orlando, LAX and one other place starting later this year.
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I'm fairly certain I've seen them in LAX before. Unless it was a "different" airline with the 787 painted in Norwegian colors.
 
ClarkGriswold said:
Well I guess if you want to look at 5-10 out of 30+ years a win...while the NWA side was on widebodies most of that time.
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I think that might be a little too far removed from the truth. I know a few senior Republic guys, one in the top 10 on the new combined list who was an A330 captain more than 10 years ago. And remember, Republic did not bring any widebody flying to the table, while it was a significant percentage of NWA flying. Perhaps the conditions and restrictions could have been a little shorter in time, but again, in the end they never lost their date-of-hire.

The alternative that is the sad norm these days, and that ALPA seems to sponsor more and more of, is to have an integration where the losers loose their captain bid and/or never become captains during their entire career.


TP
 
I was reading your post and was going to respond until I got to this...

typhoonpilot said:
That's not a contradiction. It worked very well over the long run in the NWA/Republic integration. Tough pill to swallow for the Republic group in the beginning, but they are now the senior DAL pilots. In other words they were not materially harmed at the end of their career like you would propose with your methodology.



Typhoonpilot
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This is one of the few times on here when I am absolutely speechless.
 
learhawkerbe400 said:
There was an article in USA today the other day that said NAI Is flying to Paris from Orlando, LAX and one other place starting later this year.
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B767 said:
I'm fairly certain I've seen them in LAX before. Unless it was a "different" airline with the 787 painted in Norwegian colors.
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It is confusing but NAI is NOT going to be flying from Paris to Orlando/LAX/other places. It appears Norwegian Air Shuttle (NAS) will be and they are already flying to the United States. NAS is flown by European crews, doesn't have the offshoring of labor, etc.

The fact that NAS is going to be flying this is a victory. I am sure Bjorn Kjos wanted NAI to do this.
 
I'm stealing this from Carl Spackler who still posts on APC, I believe. This post was in 2008 when the DAL/NWA integration was happening:

If it is all the same to you, I'd prefer to do it right here so that the Delta guys who are interested can hear the history as well.

So let's begin. In 1986 Northwest Airlines and Republic Airlines had roughly the same number of pilots. Northwest fleet consisted of 747-400, 747-200, DC-10, 757, and 727. Republic fleet consisted of 757, 727 and a very large number of DC-9's. NWA purchased Republic for 880 million in cash for 100% of the company's shares. Pre merger price of Republic stock was 4 dollars per share. Purchase price was 16 dollars per share.

Between 1969 and 1979 Republic hired over 1200 pilots. In that same time frame Northwest hired none. Republic's merger proposal was date of hire which would have put 1200 pilots senior to every Northwest pilot hired after 1979. Northwest's merger proposal was a rather complex ratio that would have put a number of Republic pilots with earlier hire dates behind Northwest pilots with later hire dates.

The arbitrator's decision was short and to the point:

The list was straight date of hire. (Personal thought: prior to the merger, my seniority number was about 1200. After the seniority integration, my new number was 3750 even though we both had roughly the same number of pilots. When I saw my new number I actually had to sit down because I felt ill). The arbitrator's decision continued:

Due to the vast imbalances created with a date of hire list, conditions and restrictions are included. A snapshot of each airline's fleet was taken and a certain number of pre-merger seats were protected as follows:

1. Certain pre-merger NWA pilot seats were protected to be bid only by Northwest pilots for 20 years. Any growth above the protected seats will be shared on a 1 for 1 basis for 20 years.

2. Certain pre-merger Republic pilot seats were protected to be bid only by Republic pilots for 20 years. Any growth above the protected seats will be shared on a 1 for 1 basis for 20 years.

3. No bump - No flush protections.

And that was it.

My progression to my position today happened about 2 years later than the projections showed would have happened without a merger. Due to the subsequent purchase of additional wide body aircraft by NWA after the merger and the requisite growth sharing, over 500 former Republic pilots have retired as Captains on the 747, DC-10 or A330. When the 20 year fence came down in 2006, the top 400 pilots on the NWA seniority list were former Republic pilots. Today the top 229 pilots on the NWA seniority list are former Republic pilots.

All of the above are the dry facts (except for my parenthetical views). A lexus/nexus search for the arbitration award of Judge Thomas Roberts will yield the award for you to read for yourself.

This should get the discussion started if anyone is interested.

Carl
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Seggy said:
It is confusing but NAI is NOT going to be flying from Paris to Orlando/LAX/other places. It appears Norwegian Air Shuttle (NAS) will be and they are already flying to the United States. NAS is flown by European crews, doesn't have the offshoring of labor, etc.

The fact that NAS is going to be flying this is a victory. I am sure Bjorn Kjos wanted NAI to do this.
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How are they able to fly from the US-Paris if they are a Norwegian company? Why the backlash over Emirates Milan-JFK but not these routes?
 
typhoonpilot said:
I think that might be a little too far removed from the truth. I know a few senior Republic guys, one in the top 10 on the new combined list who was an A330 captain more than 10 years ago. And remember, Republic did not bring any widebody flying to the table, while it was a significant percentage of NWA flying. Perhaps the conditions and restrictions could have been a little shorter in time, but again, in the end they never lost their date-of-hire.

The alternative that is the sad norm these days, and that ALPA seems to sponsor more and more of, is to have an integration where the losers loose their captain bid and/or never become captains during their entire career.


TP
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Those Republic guys were 330 Captains because that was a new aircraft, same with the 320 when it showed up. Had they not came they would still be under the fence. For a long time NWA was split, fNWA pilots on the Boeings (Protected) and fREP on the Airbuses. It was not a good merger overall.


BTW Carl Spackler has been a whale Captain for a long time. Pushing 20 years I believe.
 
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There is a lot of confusion about "NAS" vs "NAI". NAS, while we may not be happy with "capacity dumping" and aggressive pricing, is following the agreements put in place to allow them to fly between two non-Norwegian cities. They aren't sourcing staff from 3rd parties because they have to follow Norwegian labor law. The deny NAI fight not only helps NAS crews keep their better paying jobs it also helps prevent the camels nose under the tent scenario much like what occurred to boat crews. So called "Flags of Convenience".
 
I wear a black one, I used to just wear the clip but the seat belt stripped it off once and I walked into the terminal without my badge....

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
 
Seggy said:
Isn't it awesome when you learn something new @typhoonpilot ?
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ClarkGriswold said:
It was not a good merger overall.
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Riddle me this: What pilot group went from $83/hour to $145/hour as a 727 captains; kept their date-of-hire; and are now all at the top of the old NWA list, thus fill many of the top positions on the combined DAL/NWA list?

Now compare that to the relative position method where a mid seniority NWA pilot (circa 97,98 hires) who would have been number 1 on the NWA list at age 62 will not ever break number 500 by age 65 on the combined list. Please tell me how you see that as better?




Typhoonpilot
 
typhoonpilot said:
Riddle me this: What pilot group went from $83/hour to $145/hour as a 727 captains; kept their date-of-hire; and are now all at the top of the old NWA list, thus fill many of the top positions on the combined DAL/NWA list?

Now compare that to the relative position method where a mid seniority NWA pilot (circa 97,98 hires) who would have been number 1 on the NWA list at age 62 will not ever break number 500 by age 65 on the combined list. Please tell me how you see that as better?




Typhoonpilot
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Why are people so obsessed with number rather than percentage? If you are scheduled to retire at 5% at your company, does it really matter whether this is at position 5, 50, 500, etc...?

For all intents and purposes your bidding power remains the same.

Seems to me to be very superficial to miss being a certain number.
 
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