Being told to call ATC, after landing
- Thread starter Boots2Wings
- Start date
USMCmech
Well-Known Member
I've gotten the "stand by to copy a phone number" a few times. In one case, a controller just wanted to confirm that I had had the traffic in question in sight the whole time.
I've also called in to complain about a controller on a couple of occasions. One was at Sheppard where I was vectored way too close to a pair of towers, another was when a controller cleared a plane to take off right in front of me, when I was on a bout 1/2 mile final. Both cases were resolved over the phone.
I've also called in to complain about a controller on a couple of occasions. One was at Sheppard where I was vectored way too close to a pair of towers, another was when a controller cleared a plane to take off right in front of me, when I was on a bout 1/2 mile final. Both cases were resolved over the phone.
MidlifeFlyer
Well-Known Member
Not "call this number" but I was driving along one day when my cell rings. "Hello, this is [name withheld] with Denver Tower."
Oh crap! I thought. What did I do?
Turned out his wife bought him a gift certificate for a set of three flying lessons with me for his birthday.
PropSettin'
Low n Slow
In LAX a few months ago while waiting for our gate to open... we had been sitting on taxiway for a few minutes, *ding* "someones up in the back ill let you know when were all seated"... less than 10 seconds later "XXXX i need to move you...." "unable, passenger up in the back" *very disgruntled* "I NEED YOU TO TELL ME THESE THINGS ALOT SOONER"... get everyone seated, taxi to new spot... "XXXX advise when ready to copy number for possible pilot deviation"... WTF
Call the number at the gate and get chewed out for not informing controller sooner, even though we didn't know any sooner. It happens.
Call the number at the gate and get chewed out for not informing controller sooner, even though we didn't know any sooner. It happens.
Bernoulli Fan
Controller
Mark has a nice presentation there in his post. I'll add a few points since I have now seen it from both sides.
Most center controllers have no idea what the process is for certificate action on a pilot. If they issue a Brasher, it's because they are mad or because they are required to, but they are not likely thinking about getting your certificate revoked; they probably want the supervisor to chew you out on the phone. If you are apologetic, it will likely go no further, unless a loss of separation occurred, as the supervisors probably don't know much about pilot certificate action either.
Even if you hear "possible pilot deviation," it may not be cause for excessive concern if you know you weren't committing any egregious errors. That language is part of the Brasher statement that is printed on little boards next to the scope so controllers can just read the statement to you without a lot of thought.
Last, some controllers are just easily perturbed and will give the number when not really necessary. But it goes both ways. A couple days ago, a pilot failed to use his call sign on several consecutive readbacks, and also failed to include it when replying to the controller's instruction to "USE YOUR CALLSIGN." The controller stated that it would be a pilot deviation if the pilot failed to use the callsign one more time, and the pilot responded "Roger."
Most center controllers have no idea what the process is for certificate action on a pilot. If they issue a Brasher, it's because they are mad or because they are required to, but they are not likely thinking about getting your certificate revoked; they probably want the supervisor to chew you out on the phone. If you are apologetic, it will likely go no further, unless a loss of separation occurred, as the supervisors probably don't know much about pilot certificate action either.
Even if you hear "possible pilot deviation," it may not be cause for excessive concern if you know you weren't committing any egregious errors. That language is part of the Brasher statement that is printed on little boards next to the scope so controllers can just read the statement to you without a lot of thought.
Last, some controllers are just easily perturbed and will give the number when not really necessary. But it goes both ways. A couple days ago, a pilot failed to use his call sign on several consecutive readbacks, and also failed to include it when replying to the controller's instruction to "USE YOUR CALLSIGN." The controller stated that it would be a pilot deviation if the pilot failed to use the callsign one more time, and the pilot responded "Roger."
AM011309
Well-Known Member
This^ !!
This^ too!!
It does go both ways, pilots call to complain about the service sometimes. Us telling you to call is mostly about trying to talk/explain more about something off freq. Trying not to embarass you, or just explain something. You get the occasional •, but for the most part we are no harm no foul. If a pilot error caused a deal then probably it's not a good phone call.... Also, If a pilot is super jerky then we have less incentive to ignore it and more motivation to elevate/file it -- still no guarantee you get violated as that's FSDO's decision as far as I know. Just be like, OMG I'm so sorryyyy I didn't knowwww can I send you some pizza and tour your facility to better understand so sorryyyyy... lol
I gave a guy a number once and didn't want him to worry so when I gave it to him tried to sound extra chipper and said, "Hey can you do me a favor when you land, no one is in trouble, just have a question and want to clarify something", even though I did ask/tell him when he called, Hey in the future, please do X because of Y. I hate giving the number. 99.9% of the time it's an honest mistake, we're all human... would love a dollar every time I've made a mistake, ya know?
smt6
Well-Known Member
I'm at a busy Class Delta, with primarily GA pilots and lots of training. Having said that, on average I see the Brasher warning issued once a month, normally for an airspace violator or failure to hold short. EVERY pilot has called upon landing. That got me thinking as a pilot and now controller, why? If I got arrested and got the blurb, anything you say, can and will be used against you, would I say anything? Your phone call, by order must be on a recorded line. Once the Brasher is issued, an MOR is required. One will only incriminate themselves by talking. The FAA will find you if they want to. The Brasher warning we issue says, "suggest, you contact..." I know peoples blood pressure increases when they get the phone number and they want to know why, but don't throw yourselves to the wolves. On multiple occasions I have seen people call, tell there side of the story, and then call back a second time and ask if they can get off with a warning. I wish I could tell people not to call, but I do enough carpet dancing already in the bosses office. Choose your words wisely if you make the call.
Boots2Wings
Just happy to be here.
Awesome answers so far guys, thanks!
I feel a whole lot less intimidated when im flying under contollers, and up against controlled airspace. I certainly wont stop trying to fly like iceman, but its a sigh of relief to know controllers arent like vultures waiting to snap the wings off oblivious pilots at any chance.
Im sure this will change (given meeting much more demanding schedules, company polices, etc.), but I cant imagine being an • to a controller unless they nearly kill me. Even when i get vectored a hell of a long way, given complex crap to deal with, and the occaisionsal "verify altitude assignment", im always grateful. All that to me is erased when i get a traffic callout I cant see, patience when my readback is horrendous, and a "have a nice flight" on handoff. Planning to bring those guys ar MYF a box of donuts when I leave here for putting up with me and all of us other trainees. Id gladly do the same for the socal guys, but i doubt they let random pilot wannabees near that place
I feel a whole lot less intimidated when im flying under contollers, and up against controlled airspace. I certainly wont stop trying to fly like iceman, but its a sigh of relief to know controllers arent like vultures waiting to snap the wings off oblivious pilots at any chance.
Im sure this will change (given meeting much more demanding schedules, company polices, etc.), but I cant imagine being an • to a controller unless they nearly kill me. Even when i get vectored a hell of a long way, given complex crap to deal with, and the occaisionsal "verify altitude assignment", im always grateful. All that to me is erased when i get a traffic callout I cant see, patience when my readback is horrendous, and a "have a nice flight" on handoff. Planning to bring those guys ar MYF a box of donuts when I leave here for putting up with me and all of us other trainees. Id gladly do the same for the socal guys, but i doubt they let random pilot wannabees near that place
Boots2Wings
Just happy to be here.
Id imagine a loss of separation at the speeds you guys come in at is a heck of alot more intense, so thats nice of them.
Also sir, loved that delta vid. The gf now understands how i was as a kid (although admittedly much less intelligent)
Still throws my mind off when i see your avatar and try to connect that to "the other guy". Hehe
BobDDuck
Island Bus Driver
When I was instructing at Willie years ago the tower (contract) gave one of our instructors a number to call after he landed. He had no idea what he'd done wrong and was really worried about it. Turns out he was their 100,000 operation of the year and they wanted him to come up and share some cake with them.
Does he work at Delta now?
BobDDuck
Island Bus Driver
Richman
JC’s Resident Curmudgeon
Just be advised that some deviations are automatically reported (AKA "the snitch"), and that the controller has little or no say if they get escalated or not. They go directly to the supervisor's desk and it gets worked from there.
Lateral deviations on RNAV departures are a favorite for this kind of thing. I know Pilot McStudmuffin likes to hand fly, and that's cool and all, but if you get off the track JUST a little bit, you are setting yourself up. There are plenty of opportunities for hand flying, but blasting out of Hubsburg in the clag when they're doing triple RNAV departures probably isn't the best time. Just sayin'.
Richman
Lateral deviations on RNAV departures are a favorite for this kind of thing. I know Pilot McStudmuffin likes to hand fly, and that's cool and all, but if you get off the track JUST a little bit, you are setting yourself up. There are plenty of opportunities for hand flying, but blasting out of Hubsburg in the clag when they're doing triple RNAV departures probably isn't the best time. Just sayin'.
Richman
Boots2Wings
Just happy to be here.
Do aircraft limitations play a factor into the overall decisions? I dont even have
An autopilot currently, and certainly wouldnt attempt a departure or approach outside what Id consider well within the plane and my own ability. But that being said, ILS or RNAV, Id figure if needles wouldnt go full deflection on me I wouldnt expect "the snitch" to pick it up. Its all hand flying for me, at least a couple hundred more hours.
Richman
JC’s Resident Curmudgeon
Unless you're flying a turbojet/turboprop you're probably not going to be flying an RNAV departure, so I wouldn't worry about that end of it.
However, slightly less than full deflection on approach, in some cases, might pinch you. I'm not talking about shooting the VOR approach into Broken Bow, Nebraska, but somewhere busier, like shooting the RNAV or LOC into Hawthorne (HHR), which is right next to LAX. Or maybe going into somewhere that has traffic on the parallel approach.
If you're just GA put-putting around, then your exposure to this kind of situations is somewhat limited to non-existent. But an altitude bump that causes a loss of separation IFR will almost certainly get caught by the snitch. Busting a class B without a clearance will get you snitched. What the supervisor does at the point is a answer better left for the actual ATCers around here.
This is nothing new. The snitch has been around since the early 90's at least. What ATC does with that info HAS changed over the years, ranging from nothing to "the Deathstar is clear to planet", so your mileage may vary. IMHO, they'll probably give more slack to a part 91 GA guy in his 150, than a 121 crew, but there will be some minimal level of interaction.
Richman
Boots2Wings
Just happy to be here.
Actually did that approach into HHR about a week ago in IMC....guy wasnt too pleased i busted minimums by fifty feet for a second or two while i was being bumped around, but he I imagine took pity on us when he figured we must be a training flight.
Jett
Well-Known Member
I'd be surprised if he noticed, altimeter is only accurate within 75', plus allowable error in the TXPDR, etc. The general rule I've heard is 300' off an assigned altitude is the threshold for a Pilot Deviation.
When it comes to separation issues, I've had the most challenges in places like MYF and CRQ, I've been flying planes that fly 60-130-KTS on final. Go the LAX etc and everyone is a lot closer in speeds, and closely managed by ATC, so stay sharp in the Skyhawk.
Boots2Wings
Just happy to be here.
Yea it freaked me out to hear him call "check altitude" on final. I looked over and expected to see minus 200 or something but was revlieved to see such a little error. Then again getting the window 100% accurate isnt the easiest with tiny ticks spaced two apart so who knows. Alls well that ends well.
MYF is where im based so I know just how much fun that place can be, especially since 28L is still out. CRQ is a bit dicier just because they have much faster traffic it seems....although I do enjoy getting that little cessna up to "best speed" for them
SEE i personally hate just because of the taxiways (and the base turn that points you dead at the hill), RNM is always fun just because if the controllers irritated it sounds like they are yelling at you from the bathroom.All in all its training so every new challenge is a learning opportunity right?