Carlsbad Helo Crash...RIP Two Dead

[MikeD]

Gotcha, would it have at least slowed down the rotation with flat pitch then? I guess what I'm trying to figure out is would it have been easier to close the throttle or shut off the fuel or in your opinion, would the forces have been too strong for them to reach the controls?

The collective flat pitch wouldn't have made a difference once that tail rotor control was lost, the spin can't be countered. That's why a power-on landing with loss of tail rotor control is done as a running landing, not to a spot landing. Too, once those main rotor blades were gone, then the collective was useless. To stop the spinning main rotor system, the engine needed to be shut down. 711BE was a B3e model, so the engine would have to be shut down from the engine start switch on the ceiling, or the fuel shutoff at the top of the windscreen. Both of which would be nearly impossible to reach once the spinning began, assuming the crew was still conscious.

 

[ProudPilot]

More Video

 

[ProudPilot]

Ok, hindsight being 20/20, for the future what would you have done to stop the spinning helicopter and try to get to the crew sooner? Douse it with water until the engines stop? What if the crew drowns? How about approaching with a front loader or snow plow and letting the blades disintegrate on the steel before arresting the rotation? That would be my vote, but I also think that is dangerous. I don't think there is a one size fits all answer, but next to a hangar and a fuel truck there is reason to move quickly. Thoughts?

 

[sweeps]

The collective flat pitch wouldn't have made a difference once that tail rotor control was lost, the spin can't be countered. That's why a power-on landing with loss of tail rotor control is done as a running landing, not to a spot landing. Too, once those main rotor blades were gone, then the collective was useless. To stop the spinning main rotor system, the engine needed to be shut down. 711BE was a B3e model, so the engine would have to be shut down from the engine start switch on the ceiling, or the fuel shutoff at the top of the windscreen. Both of which would be nearly impossible to reach once the spinning began, assuming the crew was still conscious.

Thanks for the info. My helicopter knowledge is pretty limited but was thinking maybe that the pitch of the blades would effect the rotation speed. Yeah sounds like the poor guys were hosed then...

 

[MikeD]

Ok, hindsight being 20/20, for the future what would you have done to stop the spinning helicopter and try to get to the crew sooner? Douse it with water until the engines stop? What if the crew drowns? How about approaching with a front loader or snow plow and letting the blades disintegrate on the steel before arresting the rotation? That would be my vote, but I also think that is dangerous. I don't think there is a one size fits all answer, but next to a hangar and a fuel truck there is reason to move quickly. Thoughts?

There's really nothing you can do rescue-wise until it stops. You can try hitting the engine with high pressure water from the turret, but the chance of flaming it out is nil, and the danger of personnel/trucks being hit by shrapnel or high-velocity parts is a real threat. We're talking stuff that can decapitate someone or sever limbs. The crew won't drown, as the cabin won't flood or hold any water. The fuselage has to stop somehow if the engine isn't going to, either by hitting something or by the engine shutting off.

Had the spinning fuselage hit the fuel truck, my bet is all that would've happened is the fuselage would've stopped, as the fuel truck is far more stout than the helicopter fuselage is. Doubt there would've been any fire/explosion of the fuel truck or impingment of its tank. However impingement of the helicopter's fuel tank could very well be a possibility in that scenario, with a resultant fire being ignited there.......but the fuselage spinning stopped. Fire could be attacked from there, but it may or may not be able to be suppressed immediately. It becomes a "pick your poison" of whether the crew gets killed by the impact or by the fire, assuming they're still alive up to that point.

Stopping it with a snow plow or front end loader is an option, if you have those parked around, but again......causing a post crash fire when the blades of either possible break the helo's fuel tank from the impact, is high threat to the front end loader/snow plow driver, as well as the aforementioned shedding of debris.

No real good options, sadly.

Thats why some of the original posts in this thread saying essentially that there would be hell to answer to for CFR for not acting, made me just shake my head at the lack of true understanding of what was really going on here in terms of both the accident dynamics as well as the crash rescue response options. As the fire officer on scene, I too would've held my forces back at a safe distance, but ready to move in once that danger ceased. At best hit the wreckage from a distance with a turret if it was on fire, but no more than that.

 

[dustoff17]

Expert from the Preliminary Report:

"The helicopter then landed short of the helipad, with the center of its skids making contact with the pad's front edge. The helicopter immediately rocked back and its tailskid struck the ground. The helicopter then began a series of back and forth oscillations, and the helipad broke free from the rear left chock, rotated to the right, and pivoted around its front right wheel. The helicopter spun with the helipad for the first quarter of the turn, and then rapidly climbed and rotated 270 degrees to the right. The helipad came to rest to the north, having revolved 180 degrees, and about 50 seconds later the helicopter landed on the tarmac east of the helipad, while partially straddling taxiway A and the ramp at a 45-degree angle.

For the next 2 1/2 minutes line crew re-secured the helipad, installing chocks on three of the four wheels. The helicopter then repositioned for an approach to the helipad from the west. During the next 4 1/2 minutes the helicopter made three landing attempts, getting to within 5 to 20 ft of the helipad. A video of the final landing attempt was captured by a witness, who was located about 130 ft south. He had observed the other landing attempts and was concerned that the helicopter may crash, so positioned himself behind a car at the corner of the FBO's hangar.

The video revealed that the helicopter again landed short of the pad, similar to the first landing attempt, rocking back and forth twice onto its tailskid. After the final strike, the helicopter pitched violently forward and out of view behind the hangar. Security cameras revealed that from here the helicopter spun 180 degrees to the left, and after reaching a 45-degree nose up attitude, the aft tailrotor and vertical stabilizer assembly struck the ground and separated. The helicopter bounced and rotated another 360 degrees before landing hard on its left side. Once on the ground, the main rotor blades and cabin continued to spin with the engine still running. The helicopter continued spinning for the next 5 minutes and 10 seconds while slowly sliding about 530 ft east along the ramp. The tailboom and horizontal stabilizer then separated and the helicopter rolled onto its side, shedding the main rotor blades. The engine continued operating for another 30 seconds while fire crew doused the helicopter. White smoke billowed from the engine's exhaust after the helicopter came to rest, but there was no indication of fire.

The pilot purchased the helicopter on October 29, 2015, but had flown demonstration and familiarization flights in it since September 20. According to the helicopter's maintenance records, those flights totaled about 8.8 hours, and were all conducted with a certified flight instructor present. He received an additional 2 hours of flight training on November 13.

According to friends and flight instructors who had flown with the pilot, he had previously owned a Bell 407, and the accident flight was the first he had flown in the AS350 series without a professional pilot present."


Observation from this report only: Why feel the need to FORCE the aircraft on to the helipad? He hit the thing three times! Just go park and call it a day.

First flight without instructor.....?

 

[MikeD]

Observation from this report only: Why feel the need to FORCE the aircraft on to the helipad? He hit the thing three times! Just go park and call it a day.

First flight without instructor.....?

He may not have realized that he struck the tailskid the first time, but still, after that first series of oscillations, then being able to successfully land next to the pad on the ground; that'd probably be the time to call it a day.

The AS350 series, if someone is used to a different helicopter, they won't be used to the 350 where you sit on that bird in the pilots seat....you are far forward of the center of the skids. In fact, you're sitting under the nearly the toes of the skids. Mentally, you have to be aware that to land in the center of a particular landing area......pad, platform, etc.....that visually, you need to almost feel like you are on the forward edge of it, because that's where you need to be in order to actually be centered on your intended landing area with the helo/skids itself. If one isn't used to this requirement, I can see landing where they place themselves atop the landing point seat-wise, and the helicopter is mostly far aft of the intended spot. It happens easier than one thinks even to experienced people, but is much more easily remedied with an experienced person.

Happened to me just the other day landing on a mountain pinnacle spot.....touched down, slowly lowered the collective, moved the cyclic fore/aft slightly to check firmness of the landing spot and the bird rocked back and forth gently, indicating that I wasn't yet on the center of the skids. Just easily picked up, moved a few more feet forward, and set down again. Did same check and was firm on skids, then lowered the collective to let the weight settle on for stability.

 

[Deleted member 27505]

RIP.
Don't know if this one has been posted. Apologies in advance if dupe.

 

[Bear]

you have to be aware that to land in the center of a particular landing area......pad, platform, etc.....that visually, you need to almost feel like you are on the forward edge of it,

The bullseye used on pads, is the intent to have you settle on the center to be clear of all hazards, or as you note to insure your boom is safely clear of hazards?

 

[MikeD]

The bullseye used on pads, is the intent to have you settle on the center to be clear of all hazards, or as you note to insure your boom is safely clear of hazards?

To be clear of hazards for the rotor disc as well as the tail, provided the helicopter is at or within the Overall Length marking noted on the pad, if one applies [if there, the maximum Overall Length will be marked on the pad; if there's also a weight limitation on the pad, that number will also be there (upper number) and the OL number should be preceded by a "D" (lower number)]. If there's no weight limit, there may be a slash marking. The circle {or cross for hospital) is known as the Touchdown and Positioning circle. It's generally in the center of the Touchdown and Liftoff area, otherwise known as the load bearing area of the pad, generally paved.

 

[mshunter]

So how did the dude die then?

 

[dustoff17]

So how did the dude die then?

I stayed in a Holiday Inn Express last month so this is my best guess:

Excessive G's.
When the body starts spinning "in a top" like this the effect against the "X" axis is extreme. Blood starts to pool where it shouldn't and the muscles can't work against the forces in order to breath. Only good thing in both of these accidents is that the people weren't conscious.
Blackout comes pretty quick unless you've been through high G training and your ready for it. Even if trained and ready, the "X" axis is the body's weakest.

 

[AAPalmTree]

Poor ADM. RIP.

 

[ChasenSFO]

New video showing the accident helicopter.

Damn. Things happen quick.

Very bizarre, a report I will be looking out for eagerly. Poor bastards inside, I hope they were both knocked out during all of that. What a horrible way to go if they were hanging on inside for almost 5 minutes until the final impact.

 

[The Fez]

I really hate to say it, but there comes a point where an intentional crash becomes the best option. Losing one's tail rotor at altitude is one thing, but trying to save it just above the ground isn't going to end well. IF the pilot was still able, a "ditching" scenario may have been the best option. Hard cyclic in the direction of spin to stop the rotor blades.

Having instructed in helicopters, this scenario was something I thought about with inexperienced students. If they smack the tail rotor on something while taxiing and a hovering autorotation wasn't possible (in a Robinson, rolling the throttle off is easy, but again, what if?) what is the best way to save us? Eliminate rotating mass, eliminate rotation.

 

[fholbert]

http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2016/03/family-of-man-killed-in-copter-crash.html

SAN DIEGO (CN) - The family of a man killed in a freak helicopter crash at Palomar Airport this past year sued the airport, helicopter manufacturer and the pilot who also died in the crash.
Gary Lewis and his five brothers and sisters filed suit in San Diego Superior Court on Feb. 25 over the death of their "beloved brother" Wayne Lewis, who was the passenger on an Airbus helicopter operated by American Bank CEO Bruce Erickson

 

[MikeD]

http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2016/03/family-of-man-killed-in-copter-crash.html

SAN DIEGO (CN) - The family of a man killed in a freak helicopter crash at Palomar Airport this past year sued the airport, helicopter manufacturer and the pilot who also died in the crash.
Gary Lewis and his five brothers and sisters filed suit in San Diego Superior Court on Feb. 25 over the death of their "beloved brother" Wayne Lewis, who was the passenger on an Airbus helicopter operated by American Bank CEO Bruce Erickson

Sue the airport? Sue the helicopter manufacturer?

Because the airport existed? Because the built the helo?

How about sue the pilot....

 

[T/O w/FSII]

From the NTSB report. Wow. Bad judgment on the instructors part. 4 landing attempts, and a prior tail strike with the final being the one that broke it. Looks like line service put 3 sets of chocks out after the first near crash. They even landed on the ramp after the first tail strike, then hit the tail again on the 4th landing attempt.

If my student in a plane had to go around 3 times in a row, you better believe they are done for the day.

The helicopter then landed short of the helipad, with the center of its skids making contact with the pad's front edge. The helicopter immediately rocked back and its tailskid struck the ground. The helicopter then began a series of back and forth oscillations, and the helipad broke free from the rear left chock, rotated to the right, and pivoted around its front right wheel. The helicopter spun with the helipad for the first quarter of the turn, and then rapidly climbed and rotated 270 degrees to the right. The helipad came to rest to the north, having revolved 180 degrees, and about 50 seconds later the helicopter landed on the tarmac east of the helipad, while partially straddling taxiway A and the ramp at a 45-degree angle.

For the next 2 1/2 minutes line crew re-secured the helipad, installing chocks on three of the four wheels. The helicopter then repositioned for an approach to the helipad from the west. During the next 4 1/2 minutes the helicopter made three landing attempts, getting to within 5 to 20 ft of the helipad. A video of the final landing attempt was captured by a witness, who was located about 130 ft south. He had observed the other landing attempts and was concerned that the helicopter may crash, so positioned himself behind a car at the corner of the FBO's hangar.

The video revealed that the helicopter again landed short of the pad, similar to the first landing attempt, rocking back and forth twice onto its tailskid. After the final strike, the helicopter pitched violently forward and out of view behind the hangar. Security cameras revealed that from here the helicopter spun 180 degrees to the left, and after reaching a 45-degree nose up attitude, the aft tailrotor and vertical stabilizer assembly struck the ground and separated. The helicopter bounced and rotated another 360 degrees before landing hard on its left side. Once on the ground, the main rotor blades and cabin continued to spin with the engine still running. The helicopter continued spinning for the next 5 minutes and 10 seconds while slowly sliding about 530 ft east along the ramp. The tailboom and horizontal stabilizer then separated and the helicopter rolled onto its side, shedding the main rotor blades. The engine continued operating for another 30 seconds while fire crew doused the helicopter. White smoke billowed from the engine's exhaust after the helicopter came to rest, but there was no indication of fire.

 

[MikeD]

After the first land short and and hitting the front edge of the pad, prudence would be to move over, and land on the ground next to the pad. After something like what happened first, pad landing attempts for the day are officially over.

 

[Deleted member 21509]

Sue the airport? Sue the helicopter manufacturer?

Because the airport existed? Because the built the helo?

How about sue the pilot....

I have a good friend involved in an aviation lawsuit right now and let me tell you, the lawyers go after everyone regardless of fault or not. Like, "hey FBO, remember that pilot you trained 10 years ago with 5000+ hours in his book, he was involved in an accident and we are suing you for his lack of training". Things get stupid when money is involved.