Not Cool JetBlue. Not. Cool.
- Thread starter AAPalmTree
- Start date
Seggy
Well-Known Member
@ATN_Pilot can you answer? About to pick up junior.
Cptnchia
Dissatisfied Customer
If I remember correctly, North American and a few smaller carriers got it. The big ones, Delta, Northwest, United, Continental all did not even apply. US Airways got turned down two, three times.
Seggy
Well-Known Member
Do you really believe airlines have been subsidized here to the tune of $70Billion?
Baronman
Well-Known Member
No.
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
http://www.forbes.com/sites/danielr...-airlines-dont-bring-that-weak-stuff-in-here/
What I'm getting from this is the $70 billion number includes things like adjustments due to bankruptcy. Honestly, I think that DOES have to be factored in. The majors benefited GREATLY from bankruptcy law. IIRC some even filed last minute before some of the laws were changed back in the early 2000s in order to get better deals. I know that's shafted pilots on pay and benefits from which we'll likely never recover.
Personally, I think it's hypocritical of Delta management to scream foul over the Arab carriers while offering their pilots a deal that will add more JV outsourcing. To me, that shows they'd rather fight the Arab guys and say it's not fair competition wise while working a deal with Air France, Alitalia, Lufthansa or whomever to get those routes covered rather than do it themselves.
What I'm getting from this is the $70 billion number includes things like adjustments due to bankruptcy. Honestly, I think that DOES have to be factored in. The majors benefited GREATLY from bankruptcy law. IIRC some even filed last minute before some of the laws were changed back in the early 2000s in order to get better deals. I know that's shafted pilots on pay and benefits from which we'll likely never recover.
Personally, I think it's hypocritical of Delta management to scream foul over the Arab carriers while offering their pilots a deal that will add more JV outsourcing. To me, that shows they'd rather fight the Arab guys and say it's not fair competition wise while working a deal with Air France, Alitalia, Lufthansa or whomever to get those routes covered rather than do it themselves.
Koenigsberger_Katjase
Well-Known Member
Bankruptcy in the US, despite what the talking points foreign carriers make, is a lot less beneficial than bankruptcy in Europe when you have exit financing secured.
See: Sabena/Brussels Airlines, SwissAir/Swiss International, Alitalia/Alitalia, etc. Essentially the company "shuts down" but sells all its assets (except its bad leases and outstanding debt) to the new company which starts the new day, usually with the exact same roster and mostly the same fleet.
From my understanding of Chapter 11, debt owners get equity in the company, which doesn't happen in Europe. Even in American Airlines case the debt owners got paid out, did not?
Seggy
Well-Known Member
Bankruptcy is a process. Not a subsidy.
@kellwolf I am not blaming the pilots at JetBlue for the agreements they have with Emirates. What I am saying is please look at the long term impact it may have if Emirates along with the other two in the ME3 are given an opportunity to grow when they are playing by a different set of rules against the Open Skies Agreements they agreed to! It can hurt JetBlue as internal growth may be withheld along with the entire US airline industry that can hurt all of us.
@kellwolf I am not blaming the pilots at JetBlue for the agreements they have with Emirates. What I am saying is please look at the long term impact it may have if Emirates along with the other two in the ME3 are given an opportunity to grow when they are playing by a different set of rules against the Open Skies Agreements they agreed to! It can hurt JetBlue as internal growth may be withheld along with the entire US airline industry that can hurt all of us.
AAPalmTree
Well-Known Member
http://www.businesstraveller.com/news/united-withdraws-from-dubai
"In August, the General Services Administration (GSA) announced that it awarded the US government contract for 2016 on the Washington-Dubai route to JetBlue, a codeshare partner of Emirates. We formally protested this decision but were ultimately unsuccessful.
"JetBlue has no service to the Middle East and no presence in the region. Its codeshare partner, Emirates, will be solely operating this route and will be carrying an estimated 15,000 US government employees, including active duty military personnel, whose official travel is funded by US taxpayers.
"In August, the General Services Administration (GSA) announced that it awarded the US government contract for 2016 on the Washington-Dubai route to JetBlue, a codeshare partner of Emirates. We formally protested this decision but were ultimately unsuccessful.
"JetBlue has no service to the Middle East and no presence in the region. Its codeshare partner, Emirates, will be solely operating this route and will be carrying an estimated 15,000 US government employees, including active duty military personnel, whose official travel is funded by US taxpayers.
🦈💜
Well-Known Member
Baronman
Well-Known Member
What are you thoughts on AA being awarded the JFK-Doha GSA contract? You know, the one they code share on and don't operate? How about the IAD-Addis Ababa award to United? The one operated by Ethiopian Airlines...
Seggy
Well-Known Member
The HUGE difference is that United was already doing the IAD-DXB route.
typhoonpilot
Well-Known Member
I'm beginning to think you are mentally handicapped
We've been through this before. Blee256 is correct, the cash "given" to the carriers as compensation for the national shutdown has been detailed by me in previous posts and was in the $500 million range for each of the largest carriers. Now that those carriers are combined it is actually closer to $1 billion for each of the big three. That money did not need to be repaid. The loans were an additional item that the airlines did not tend to take advantage of due to some of the terms involved as I recall.
Your ability to selectively delete facts is becoming legend here Seggy.
Further you continue to say, as if it is fact, that Emirates is "subsidized" yet there still hasn't been any concrete proof given that they receive actual subsidies. I'll even give you that I would agree that both Etihad and Qatar are in fact heavily supported by their government with direct cash infusions. The same can not be said for Emirates. It is Emirates that pays their shareholder a large dividend every year!!
So, as an interesting aside. I rode from Hong Kong to Salt Lake City on Delta last month on a ticket I bought myself as it was personal travel. I'm in premium economy and nice young lady from Texas sits next to me. We get to chatting, that's something us older people do instead of staring at our iPhones
, and turns out she is an avid traveler and has a job that let's her take advantage of fare deals. She grabs bargain fares then asks her boss for time off to take the trip. She was in HKG for 4 days because the DAL fare was less than $500 round trip from PHL. Yes, it took me while to make the connection. Girl lived in Texas; worked in NYC; and travelled out of PHL. Anyway, she couldn't pass the deal up as she'd never been to HKG. The point of this aside is that DAL's international yields are under heavy pressure from State owned and/or supported Asian carriers as well as low paying South American carriers. The ME3 are only a small fraction of the competition.ALPA's little near sighted, and far to simplistic battle against the ME3, isn't helping your employers to design an effective strategy to compete for the future. The world is becoming a global marketplace, like it or not, and airlines as well as other companies need to have effective strategies to compete and thrive in that marketplace. Withdrawing into fortress America will be just about as effective as the Maginot Line was.
Typhoonpilot
Seggy
Well-Known Member
typhoonpilot
Well-Known Member
Yes Seggy, thank you for the link to the propaganda piece. The full 1000 page document had no direct proof of subsidies at Emirates.
TP
Seggy
Well-Known Member
The document was commissioned by Emirates, so tell me again about propaganda...