Army Aviation Safety Standdown

Oh see no it's been repeatedly stated at every level over the last few days that the safety stand down isn't a knee jerk reaction to show FORCECOM we are fixing the problem of 3 unrelated crashes whose findings haven't been released.

What a crap show the last few days has been.

No idea what happened in any of the incidents but let's all stand around and speculate what's wrong with us as a community....
 
Lawman said:
Oh see no it's been repeatedly stated at every level over the last few days that the safety stand down isn't a knee jerk reaction to show FORCECOM we are fixing the problem of 3 unrelated crashes whose findings haven't been released.

What a crap show the last few days has been.

No idea what happened in any of the incidents but let's all stand around and speculate what's wrong with us as a community....
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THIS!
I hated these "sessions" because for the most part we all stood around and got paid not to fly. Other than that, they were just an opportunity to go over the SAME crap we go over every other time we fly. It looks good to the Head-Shed though........
 
Lawman said:
Oh see no it's been repeatedly stated at every level over the last few days that the safety stand down isn't a knee jerk reaction to show FORCECOM we are fixing the problem of 3 unrelated crashes whose findings haven't been released.

What a crap show the last few days has been.

No idea what happened in any of the incidents but let's all stand around and speculate what's wrong with us as a community....
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If you want to keep flying those machines, you have to show some sense of remorse to the folks writing the checks you know! TECHNIQUE folks!!
 
Pure speculation on this point, but looking at the flight profiles the aircraft were all operating at low altitude. There as been a shift in the last few years within Army Aviation about having our Aviators train to go against radar air defense and therefor fly lower. Problem is we haven't operated like that in over a decade and while Aviators are technically trained for terrain flight they are by no means proficient.
 
Low_Level_Hell said:
Pure speculation on this point, but looking at the flight profiles the aircraft were all operating at low altitude. There as been a shift in the last few years within Army Aviation about having our Aviators train to go against radar air defense and therefor fly lower. Problem is we haven't operated like that in over a decade and while Aviators are technically trained for terrain flight they are by no means proficient.
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I've been screaming this for years.

I'm routinely amazed as some of the terrible tendencies I see from guys who think they know how to fly NOE.

That's not a factor in crash number 3 from what's coming out in RUMINT. There is talk of a possible fleet stand down on E models.


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You guys are just now getting around to training against radar defenses in helos? Has that not previously been a concern of Army aviation?
 
MikeD said:
You guys are just now getting around to training against radar defenses in helos? Has that not previously been a concern of Army aviation?
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I wouldn't say that. We still had terrain flight maneuvers we had to perform, however we focused the good majority of our training for OEF/OIF and not wrongfully so in my opinion.

On the flip side now everyone wants to train for the force on force type fight and are neglecting the fact we still need to train for COIN operations which is still very much going on.
 
MikeD said:
You guys are just now getting around to training against radar defenses in helos? Has that not previously been a concern of Army aviation?
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Put it this way... Nobody outside very few people with key back grounds know what "the notch" is.

Outside certain areas there hasn't been a focus on low level tactics or the radar threat in a very long time. Most attack pilots specifically have never been on an actual ASE range wth EW to work against and simulate threats.

I just put a bunch of crews on one at mountain home because it's my job to train that fight and the experience of how just one SA8 ate their lunch was eye opening. Combine that with guys who simply aren't comfortable down low because they grew up with high altitude tactics and they are combat ineffective.

We still have an uphill fight because the guys with thousands of hours flying 3k and 2000 feet orbits with impunity are running the show now days. It's rare to even find guys who flew the invasion of Iraq anymore at the Battalion level because they are all retiring or up at Brigade. Dumb preconceived notions like "don't worry the air force will take care of that," or "they won't shoot SA-6s at me why do I need to know about them," are always the response to any SIPR level academics training. Which goes to show a critical ignorance in the whole area of how joint Air campaigns work or even how SEAD is produced and how effective it is. Problem is if you try and correct it too hard you become the weird guy walking around screaming the end is near repent sinners in the eyes of your peers.




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Low_Level_Hell said:
I wouldn't say that. We still had terrain flight maneuvers we had to perform, however we focused the good majority of our training for OEF/OIF and not wrongfully so in my opinion.

On the flip side now everyone wants to train for the force on force type fight and are neglecting the fact we still need to train for COIN operations which is still very much going on.
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Lawman said:
Put it this way... Nobody outside very few people with key back grounds know what "the notch" is.

Outside certain areas there hasn't been a focus on low level tactics or the radar threat in a very long time. Most attack pilots specifically have never been on an actual ASE range wth EW to work against and simulate threats.

I just put a bunch of crews on one at mountain home because it's my job to train that fight and the experience of how just one SA8 ate their lunch was eye opening. Combine that with guys who simply aren't comfortable down low because they grew up with high altitude tactics and they are combat ineffective.

We still have an uphill fight because the guys with thousands of hours flying 3k and 2000 feet orbits with impunity are running the show now days. It's rare to even find guys who flew the invasion of Iraq anymore at the Battalion level because they are all retiring or up at Brigade. Dumb preconceived notions like "don't worry the air force will take care of that," or "they won't shoot SA-6s at me why do I need to know about them," are always the response to any SIPR level academics training. Which goes to show a critical ignorance in the whole area of how joint Air campaigns work or even how SEAD is produced and how effective it is. Problem is if you try and correct it too hard you become the weird guy walking around screaming the end is near repent sinners in the eyes of your peers.
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That's interesting. I mean sure, I can understand not being majorly worried about a Tall King or Fan Song as an Army helo guy; but I'd have thought that tactical EW threats such as a Land Roll, Scrum Half or equivalent, would be something quite concerning to you guys, much less a Straight Flush.

Things aren't always going to be MANPADs and unguided AAA. But that may be yet another of the complacencies we've gained following 15 years of operating where those and RPGs being the only real threats.
 
MikeD said:
That's interesting. I mean sure, I can understand not being majorly worried about a Tall King or Fan Song as an Army helo guy; but I'd have thought that tactical EW threats such as a Land Roll, Scrum Half or equivalent, would be something quite concerning to you guys, much less a Straight Flush.

Things aren't always going to be MANPADs and unguided AAA. But that may be yet another of the complacencies we've gained following 15 years of operating where those and RPGs being the only real threats.
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Most people wouldn't know the reporting names you just typed.

Like I said it's absolutely terrifying to those of us that do know how ignorant we are.


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Great discussion. The stand down affects U.S.-based FORSCOM aviation units, including most of the Army’s combat aviation brigades
 
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