Judging by your tone in this thread, you sound like the type of person who would write creeds, at least by your description of the type.
Is it true?
- Thread starter Seggy
- Start date
Judging by your tone in this thread, you sound like the type of person who would write creeds, at least by your description of the type.
Autothrust Blue
Welcome aboard the Washington State Ferries
Sorry. This is only true if you have a Masters degree.
ppragman
FLIPY FLAPS!
You have no experience flying in that part of the industry, so you don't understand what you're saying when you make a critique - ultimately, this means that you can critique all you want, but it carries no weight. Your critiques about crew flying, east coast operations, union issues, and part 121 flying are more than welcome. I'll even listen and learn about your philosophy on flying, what you think about airplane handling, automation, and decision making. I would say that you're certainly experienced in those regimes - but, where you meet resistance is when you start talking authoritatively about stuff you have no experience - especially when you act like you do.
What's your take on continuing education in aviation? Please, contribute to the conversation.
If one takes an exacting literal interpertation of the words, possibly.
Coming from the land of "creeds" (the military), most creeds are fluff, sure. And the one here could probably be summed up with "be a professional representative of the company, do your job."
I read this creed as kind of an intro to the above, because everyone is starting as an FO, hence the reference to that. I imagine that same kind of professionalism is expected to be carried on to being a Captain. That said, am sure the idea is for for everyone to take their professional individual selves, and apply it to the job, in this case, CRM. Sure, there's a crew in the cockpit, and that crew is made up of individuals. Nice to have the individuals understand some basic expectations.
Need to be memorized? Not hardly. Just be professional and do your job. As others have said, I'd be surprised if many even read that page.
Again, could this "creed" be far more simply stated? Sure. Is it some literal biblical interpertation that now will destroy the entire concept of CRM? I don't think so. It shouldn't be, if CRM is taught properly.
Did someone probably make some $$$ selling this drawn out and dramatic description of "be professional" to paper in the manual? Probably.
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Seggy
Well-Known Member
Wow.
When we have a jumpseater on board, even if they are off line, you tell them to speak up even though they aren't familiar with our aircraft or procedures as we are all pilots and know what is right and wrong. So, as a jumpseater, they carry weight as what others say on here should carry weight, no matter what the operation is. You and the rest of the Alaska folks just don't want to listen when others speak up.
Once again, we are all pilots.
Continuing education is part of being a professional. I have also contributed to the conversation.
drunkenbeagle
Gang Member
In this specific case, were three lines on safety, and three on professionalism on that slide. The goal of CRM is safety and communication, and I see nothing contrary to that.
I teach primary students, so I am, like it or not, the first exposure my students have to CRM concepts. And while the concepts have changed and been tweaked over the years, I wouldn't say there is one right or wrong way, but an evolving one. While most of the safety lessons are more or less common sense - "speak up, ask questions, propose solutions," the professionalism and communication parts are important too. No one wants to ask the grumpy old curmudgeon when something doesn't look right, which is why the "be in a good mood, don't be anonymous, set a good example" lessons are important too.
drunkenbeagle
Gang Member
Did someone probably make some $$$ selling this drawn out and dramatic description of "be professional" to paper in the manual? Probably.
I think they did a great job with cut & paste 10 minutes before the deadline to submit it. I mean, if it were me writing it, that would have been the case...
Be curious, but it really doesn't matter.
People write stuff.
They do.
Some things are hilarious, some things are cringe-worthy.
Like this: https://www.sportys.com/pilotshop/sporty-s-how-an-airline-captain-should-look-and-act-dvd.html — I haven't watched (read?) it, but that's his personal opinion. Does it have efficacy? Again, I have no clue. In my short time as captain, I figure you're always training your replacement. Your comportment with other pilots, your decorum with the cabin crew and ground personnel, I could speak all day about credos and Sporty's DVD's, but at the end of the day, like Adama from the Battlestar Galactica said, "Do your jobs" and realize that your job, at many companies, goes far beyond simply flying an airplane.
Hacker15e
Who am I? Where are my pants?
I don't understand what you don't understand.
If the critique that was posted was noteworthy, then that means that such a critique isn't standard. @Autothrust Blue's description makes it sound as if such critiques were not a regular part of his operational flying experience, and that the critique was warranted. Since bad habits and techniques don't just randomly pop out of the woodwork one day, there was probably a trend of whatever those techniques were that existed before the pointed critique on that one day.
I grew up in a professional environment where critiques like that weren't just standard on every flight, they were expected and solicited if they were not given thoroughly enough. In that environment, perfection was the standard. Since the perfect flight hasn't been flown since the beginning of flight, that meant there was always something to debrief, to learn, and to improve on. Every flight, every day, egoes are left at the door and honest critiques are given and received in the name of striving for that goal of perfection.
For some reason in the civilian flying world (and I've seen this in many different corners), pilots aren't able to give and receive performance criticism regularly and understand the difference between personal and professional. Far too many folks mix the two, and cannot handle honest assessment and critique of their professional performance and separate that from it being a critique of them as an individual or as a pilot in general. This leads to butthurtedness (the technical term) on the part of the receiver, and leads to tentativeness to give critiques on the part of the giver...and ultimately at the end of the flight, it can lead to two guys shrugging their shoulders when the word "debrief" comes up, and the answer is "I've got nothin'".
I've received some great critiques from Captains in my short time in the 121 world...but the vast majority of them have offered nothing, "looked good to me, I've got nothing." It is only after I've had my chance to speak, and critique my own performance, and ask for specific techniques to do things better, that good feedback was offered. It was in there...I just had to drag it out, and that's just not how it should be.
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ComplexHiAv8r
Well-Known Member
Egads, no thanks!
Seggy
Well-Known Member
If this is the cornerstone of a CRM class then it does matter.
Ok. Write Skywest a letter with your concerns and start a dialogue.
American has that "KDA" (Kick Delta's Ass) credo for the new hires, which is just darling, precious, moronic, sad and humorous all rolled up into a tightly wound ball of "WOT?!" but at the end of the day, it's their business. But it certainly is great being in a industry position that sparks such fervor to vanquish us.
If I found that credo, I probably would have posted it too, but just out of salacious curiosity for all to see, but I'm not about to mount a campaign against it.
For what it's worth I got a lot of out of the CRM class, and I don't even remember this quote.
That's what I mean. If the words in that overstated creed are presented in the proper perspective in CRM class, such as "that's what we expect of you as an individual at the company. Now, here in CRM training, we're going to teach what you as an individual bring to the CRM table, how you bring it, and why you bring it. We're going to cover how that professional individual, now melds with other professional individuals here, to become a safe and effective cockpit crew team. Welcome to CRM..."
Or something similar to that.
Seggy
Well-Known Member
Did you read what I wrote? When I was a Captain and then a LCA and noticed something I didn't sit the person down on my lap and say 'kid, here is what you need to do differently'. It was more of an ongoing discussion, 'why are you doing that a certain way', usually allowed folks to correct their mistakes or allowed me to see where they were coming from. As a LCA at the end of the trip/flight, it was 'ok I have nothing more we talked about it as we went along, sign here'. If you wait to debrief someone even an hour or two after they did something, they usually forget. Also, you can lose folks if you have a laundry list of items for them hours after they occurred.
I have yet to see (three airlines mind you) anyone take a critique personally so not sure where you are getting that from the civilian side. They, civilians, breed professionals who take critique nicely here.
If you self correct the mistake it, which is seems like you did, you get a lot more out of it than if they just offer it.