Upon entering controlled airspace...

[Karnage]

While leaving Ryan (KRYN) today on an IFR flight plan with a student today we get "upon entering controlled airspace fly heading 270..." as our initial routing. I've gotten this before when departing from non-towered airports but though it was curious to be getting it as part of our clearance from ground control at a towered airport. Since the tower was open an operating and class D airspace was in effect wouldn't we be in controlled airspace the second our wheels lifted off the ground?

I didn't think much of it at the time as I know from experience that as soon as we get switched to departure they give us radar vectors out to the airway. Of course the student decided to wait until we landed back at our home airport in the debrief to ask what it meant so couldn't get clarification from the controller. The usual clearance I get departing from Ryan is just radar vectors to V105 which is what pretty much happened on today's flight but now I'm curious as to why the "upon entering controlled airspace" was part of it today.

 

[FM_Weasel]

Since the tower was open an operating and class D airspace was in effect wouldn't we be in controlled airspace the second our wheels lifted off the ground?

Yes.

Something was goofed. The only way to know for sure is to call the facility.

Also, even if it had been appropriate, the verbiage is "When Entering Controlled Airspace." "Upon" would be a bastardization.


Likely an innocent mistake in phraseology. These things happen.

 

[Stinger]

Yeah, you're in controlled airspace right away, so it wasn't needed in your clearance.
Interestingly enough, the last facility I worked at, none of the controllers ever said "when entering controlled airspace" for any satellite departures. Didn't see any reason to (later I asked about it and they said it wasn't for any good reason, just wasn't in the facility culture to do it), and now they've got Diverse Vector Areas set up around the satellite airports so it's a moot point now. As long as the headings that are issued fall within a certain range (away from a hill) aircraft can be given departure headings and vectors below the MVA.

At my current facility, the entering controlled airpsace phrase is looked at to be pretty important, so I do it now mostly (when I remember.) As a pilot though, I wouldn't fly any different if that phrase is used or not.

 

[Karnage]

Also, even if it had been appropriate, the verbiage is "When Entering Controlled Airspace." "Upon" would be a bastardization.

In all fairness she might have said "when." Like I said I didn't really pay too much attention at the time as I know from past trips there that shortly after I contact Tucson approach they just give me radar vectors to the ALMON intersection and considering it was a clear VFR day I wasn't too worried about terrain clearance. I hadn't heard the phrase used in a long time and never at a towered airport so when the student asked me after the flight all I could do was scratch my head as to why.

It's honestly not the weirdest instruction I've gotten from Ryan tower/ground but despite their quirks they're pretty accommodating to a lot of the odd requests we make for training purposes.

 

[Cessnaflyer]

A long shot but was it a class G tower?

 

[FM_Weasel]

A long shot but was it a class G tower?

No, KRYN is a Class D towered airport, and Class E to the surface when the tower is closed:

https://skyvector.com/airport/RYN/Ryan-Field-Airport

 

[fholbert]

Clearance Delivery gives clearances verbatim from the RADAR controller.

The RADAR controller is used to issuing that clearance when the tower is closed. Simple slip up but I'm surprised the Clearance Delivery guy didn't question it.

 

[FM_Weasel]

Are we sure they're getting the clearance verbally from Approach(Radar) and not just reading from a flight progress strip? If they're just reading a strip, it could still be an error solely from the clearance delivery controller.

 

[BWER]

I think the last time I used that was at OKC. In my area we do not give vectors off the ground. If we need an aircraft in a different direction we will send them to a fix in that direction and let them know to expect on course when airborne and radar identified. This is mostly because we rarely use vectors off the ground....since we don't practice it most are not comfortable using the procedure correctly.

Also remember there is many levels of controller knowledge of the rules. A couple months ago some controllers at my facility were given an attaboy for giving a lifeguard the desk number...when if they just gave a through clearance there would of been even less delay. However those controllers were not comfortable giving a through clearance. We also have controllers that will not give an IFR clearance to an airborne aircraft below the MIA.

If you fly out of there often and this is the first time you have heard it, chances are that it was a new/training controller. As others have said each facility has its own way it operates and uses the rules.

Sent from my XT1049 using Tapatalk

 

[MikeD]

It's honestly not the weirdest instruction I've gotten from Ryan tower/ground but despite their quirks they're pretty accommodating to a lot of the odd requests we make for training purposes.

How RYN manages to stay open, especially the tower, with how little daily traffic they do get, is interesting. Ever since ATTI shut down there, it's been a somewhat a ghost town. Though the restaurant on field is quite good.

 

[ajmezz]

The biggest question was raised by Weasel. If they get the clearance from approach, then it could very well have been what the app controller read them. If they have a fdio and the strip just printed out could have possibly been a training issue.

 

[MikeD]

The biggest question was raised by Weasel. If they get the clearance from approach, then it could very well have been what the app controller read them. If they have a fdio and the strip just printed out could have possibly been a training issue.

It would be TRACON passing the clearance, I'm pretty sure. RYNs old school tower probably has radios as the only modern thing there.

 

[ajmezz]

It would be TRACON passing the clearance, I'm pretty sure. RYNs old school tower probably has radios as the only modern thing there.

I know that feeling all too well as a controller in an old tower with the bare bone equipment haha.

 

[MikeD]

I know that feeling all too well as a controller in an old tower with the bare bone equipment haha.

And outside (not even inside) stairway up to the tower cab still.

RYN tower:

 

[ajmezz]

Haha oh wow that is old school! Ours is an old AF base and I believe the tower was built in the 60's, but the outside was redone more recently. 115 stairs up, 115 stairs down!

 

[FM_Weasel]

It would be TRACON passing the clearance, I'm pretty sure. RYNs old school tower probably has radios as the only modern thing there.

If you have inside knowledge, then that's good trivia to know. But don't underestimate how old these FDIO computers are. You can find them in some pretty antiquated towers that lack other forms of basic automation. It does offer an excellent explanation as to the phraseology confusion though, I agree. Radar controller is so used to saying "when entering controlled airspace," that they include it with the clearance when relaying to RYN tower. RYN tower does exactly as they're told without question and repeats the error.

Here's the FDIO computer:

 

[MikeD]

If you have inside knowledge, then that's good trivia to know. But don't underestimate how old these FDIO computers are. You can find them in some pretty antiquated towers that lack other forms of basic automation. It does offer an excellent explanation as to the phraseology confusion though, I agree. Radar controller is so used to saying "when entering controlled airspace," that they include it with the clearance when relaying to RYN tower. RYN tower does exactly as they're told without question and repeats the error.

Here's the FDIO computer:

Thats pretty cool! Some old school is still very effective.

 

[ajmezz]

What's that futuristic technology?! I hope we get one of those one day!

 

[Karnage]

How RYN manages to stay open, especially the tower, with how little daily traffic they do get, is interesting. Ever since ATTI shut down there, it's been a somewhat a ghost town. Though the restaurant on field is quite good.

Even my students wonder why there's a tower there some times, although I'm just grateful for the fact they've never said no to my request for an opposite direction ILS with a circle to 24L. When Gateway's ILS was shut down over the summer I got rather sick of the trip down to Tucson and Ryan just to get an ILS other than Casa Grande. Plus it's interesting to watch the Guard copters do practice work on the parallel runway in between touch and go's.

Todd's Restaurant is pretty good. My student's laugh at me when I tell them I pick cross country airports based on the on-field restaurant.

 

[genot]

If you have inside knowledge, then that's good trivia to know. But don't underestimate how old these FDIO computers are. You can find them in some pretty antiquated towers that lack other forms of basic automation. It does offer an excellent explanation as to the phraseology confusion though, I agree. Radar controller is so used to saying "when entering controlled airspace," that they include it with the clearance when relaying to RYN tower. RYN tower does exactly as they're told without question and repeats the error.

Here's the FDIO computer:

Our tech ops upgraded our monitors recently. Their reasoning was if any component failed it'd be impossible to find a replacement. Our new monitors are touch screen LCDs. No the touch screen doesn't work and it's the same monochromatic green. We're also fortunate in that we have a few ATA's. A 6,7,10 takes me the better part of five minutes.