13 off days per quarter.

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Pilotcollin

Well-Known Member
Is there a legal interpretation on what an "off" day notification is. I have worked under different interpretations. My understanding is it must be scheduled in advanced in writing. I have worked for companies that consider a 24 hour period without duty as an off day in regards to 13 per quarter.
 
It doesn't have to be in writing just advance notice. Nor does it have to be while at home. A company can assign you a day off while you're on road and in a hotel.


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CFI A&P said:
It doesn't have to be in writing just advance notice. Nor does it have to be while at home. A company can assign you a day off while you're on road and in a hotel.


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What pilots would accept that kind of BS. Days off should be when you are at home sleeping in your own bed. With that logic the pilot could be on the road 100% of the time.
 
rausda27 said:
What pilots would accept that kind of BS. Days off should be when you are at home sleeping in your own bed. With that logic the pilot could be on the road 100% of the time.
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You are correct. Not many people know this fact, those that do know it because they've been burned.




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Pilotcollin said:
Is there a legal interpretation on what an "off" day notification is. I have worked under different interpretations. My understanding is it must be scheduled in advanced in writing. I have worked for companies that consider a 24 hour period without duty as an off day in regards to 13 per quarter.
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24 hour period free from duty is "off" and unfortunately that could mean sitting in TEB at the hotel for 24 hours because they had to schedule you a day off. WELCOME TO CHARTER.
 
It can't be retrospective, so they can't tell you that yesterday was your day off because they didn't call you. As far as I know, the only requirement is that you get some type of advanced notification. At my old company, they would call or text and tell us we were being put on 24 hour rest at X time.
 
mojo6911 said:
It can't be retrospective, so they can't tell you that yesterday was your day off because they didn't call you. As far as I know, the only requirement is that you get some type of advanced notification. At my old company, they would call or text and tell us we were being put on 24 hour rest at X time.
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Even that is a luxury. I flew 135 for 8 years and was never notified in advance of being put on rest or being given a day off. It was just a rolling rest nightmare. Apparently that just ended today at one of the operators.
 
BEEF SUPREME said:
Even that is a luxury. I flew 135 for 8 years and was never notified in advance of being put on rest or being given a day off. It was just a rolling rest nightmare. Apparently that just ended today at one of the operators.
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Then you and your company were illegal for 8 years.

Rest has got to be one of the few FARs that people and companies will openly admit to violating on a daily basis.
 
z987k said:
Then you and your company were illegal for 8 years.

Rest has got to be one of the few FARs that people and companies will openly admit to violating on a daily basis.
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My efforts to change the system were rewarded by me being the first pilot to be laid off when work dried up post 2008. Sorry I didn't comply with the FARs.
 
The problem is rest is not defined in the FARs, rather in LOIs. If you're new to 135 and are unaware of LOIs on the subject, then your only source of guidance/education on it is likely in indoc. The FAA needs to define rest IN THE FARs and remove the so called "grey area/open to interpretation" argument that I've heard from so many dirt bag operators.
 
averettpilot said:
The problem is rest is not defined in the FARs, rather in LOIs. If you're new to 135 and are unaware of LOIs on the subject, then your only source of guidance/education on it is likely in indoc. The FAA needs to define rest IN THE FARs and remove the so called "grey area/open to interpretation" argument that I've heard from so many dirt bag operators.
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110% this.
 
I am flying from long time with a company. There is a pre-planned schedule for a month, they are giving off day accordingly in the schedule. It is mostly followed by us and only in the rare cases it gets changed and our day off is rescheduled.
 
For flight attendants....if an operator doesn't want to schedule rest properly, this is what they'll say. It says in subpart a) For the purposes of this section, and then goes on to define it. That's not good enough. It needs a blanket definition for the whole of 135 unless someone wants to write yet another letter asking if the rest definition in 135.273 applies to all of part 135. Maybe there is, at this point there's too many to read. Define it by law not by interpretation....
 
averettpilot said:
For flight attendants....if an operator doesn't want to schedule rest properly, this is what they'll say. It says in subpart a) For the purposes of this section, and then goes on to define it. That's not good enough. It needs a blanket definition for the whole of 135 unless someone wants to write yet another letter asking if the rest definition in 135.273 applies to all of part 135. Maybe there is, at this point there's too many to read. Define it by law not by interpretation....
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The FAA even cites 135.273 for that definition in their interpretations.
 
"1 While the section of the regulations that you refer to covers flight and duty limitations for flight attendants and not pilots, the definition of the terms "duty" and "rest" as used in § 135.273(a) have been similarly applied to pilots, flight engineers, flight attendants and maintenance personnel." Taken from a LOI footnote section. I just searched "135.273" as a key word and ony 4 letters came up, none of them addressing the definition as it relates to pilot crews. Further, in almost every letter about rest under 135 it says "the FAA has consistently interpreted rest as meaning...." Never once has it listed a definition for rest except as it pertains specifically to flight attendants, always interpret. Why did they define it in 135.273 but not elsewhere?

I have had discussions with DOs and CPs about this very subject and they always say there is a grey area and that LOIs are not law, even saying "this is the one that we use" discounting all the others because it doesn't fit their wants and desires. Remove the "grey area" and define it for everyone, even if you have to do it in specifics the way it was done for flight attendants and end this discussion.
 
There is no grey area. That's what I don't understand. Show me the grey area please...

Management who says it's a grey area have manufactured that saying because it has become a collective among garbage 135 operators. Letters from the chief counsel are defining these issues and ruling on them. They are absolutely law. The problem is, they are hardly ever written in as regs on the next revision. This horse has been beat to absolute death, and it still continues because dirt bags choose to look the other way and operate illegally.


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Inverted said:
There is no grey area. That's what I don't understand. Show me the grey area please...

Management who says it's a grey area have manufactured that saying because it has become a collective among garbage 135 operators. Letters from the chief counsel are defining these issues and ruling on them. They are absolutely law. The problem is, they are hardly ever written in as regs on the next revision. This horse has been beat to absolute death, and it still continues because dirt bags choose to look the other way and operate illegally.


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I'd argue the lack of enforcement on the FAA's part creates the grey area. The letter of the law may make it illegal, but if there are no(or minimal) consequences it becomes a cost benefit decision for business management.

This was seen in North Dakota during the height of the oil boom. Businesses needed permits, but getting one took too long. With minimal fines and limited enforcement many decided it was worth it to pay the fine IF they got caught.
 
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