Which New Plane?

SrFnFly227

SrFnFly227

Well-Known Member
Looking for advice on a new plane for the boss. The King Air 90 (2007 GT) that we dry lease is going to be sold and we're deciding which way to go. 75% of the trips are under an hour flight time (ORF-IAD) with 1 or 2 passengers. Boss likes to sit up front when it's just him. I've come up with a few options and I'm curious if anybody has ever done a comparison between any of these. If he buys something, it will more than likely end up on the same management certificate as the Challenger 601 that he already owns.

First, buy the plane we've been flying or another KA 90. It fits the mission well and he seems to like it. It is painfully slow though and I feel like it's pretty loud inside.

Second, a Pilatus. I'm leaning this way for a few reasons. It's a few knots faster than the 90 and I would think that operating costs would drop with it being single engine. He does not need the extra size, but I think he'd be open to it as the charter capability would go up.

Third, a TBM. It's the fastest of the turboprop options, but it may be a little on the small side. Not sure this a viable option.

Last, a Phenom 100 or Mustang. I'm typed in and have flown both. I'd push more to the Mustang because of runway performance and because he doesn't really need the extra speed of the Phenom. I'm planning to steer him away from either plane for multiple reasons though, not the least of which is the type rating requirement.

Any and all advice is welcome, but if you chime in, please share your reasoning. Thanks.
 
When you're flying with him and the pax, how much baggage goes with? The TBM has a lot less cabin space than the 90 or PC-12.

I used to refer to the 90 as the flying sofa when I flew it, slow stable etc. A PC-12 will cut fuel costs significantly. Recently saw something saying along the lines of 30-40% in operating costs saved. I have 1000+ hours on single engine PT-6 platforms, including a modified Pilatus PC-9, and I've felt very comfortable flying them (except flying around the GCA pattern over water outside of DEGA at night). The reliability on those things are pretty stellar.

Here's a link that may help your decision making process.
http://www.flyingmag.com/aircraft/pilatus-pc-12-versus-world-comparison-specs

I'm in Virginia Beach as well. Sounds like you have a sweet gig. Good luck with the selection process.
 
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I've flown the C90 and the PC12 now, both are good machines, but the PC12 is an engineering marvel. It's the best designed airplane I've ever flown (even if it is chronically boring to operate). The C90Bs I fly are more utilitarian than a corporate model, but they are comfortable enough - regardless, the Pilatus has WAYYY more room, and more utility. You can go a lot further carrying more in the PC12 than you can in the 90 too. You can non-stop ANC - PDX in a PC12 with a legal reserve and more than enough room inside for stuff, and it's faster than the 90. Additionally, the shortfield performance of the PC12 is freaking incredible, we flew ours into and out of 1800' strips on occasion, and while it was a bit "pucker inducing" we had book numbers showing we could do much better. The Pilatus will allow you to say "yes" much more than the 90 will, and the pilot seats are more comfortable. Just my $.02.

If you have any questions at all, shoot me a PM and I'll do whatever I can to point you in the right direction for a PC12, I know a guy who sells them in FL and could probably find you a nice one. It's a damn good airplane, and I'll always recommend one, plus the operating costs are way lower (even though the acquisition costs are much higher).
 
zippy said:
When you're flying with him and the pax, how much baggage goes with? The TBM has a lot less cabin space than the 90 or PC-12.

I used to refer to the 90 as the flying sofa when I flew it, slow stable etc. A PC-12 will cut fuel costs significantly. Recently saw something saying along the lines of 30-40% in operating costs saved. I have 1000+ hours on single engine PT-6 platforms, including a modified Pilatus PC-9, and I've felt very comfortable flying them (except flying around the GCA pattern over water outside of DEGA at night). The reliability on those things are pretty stellar.

Here's a link that may help your decision making process.
http://www.flyingmag.com/aircraft/pilatus-pc-12-versus-world-comparison-specs

I'm in Virginia Beach as well. Sounds like you have a sweet gig. Good luck with the selection process.
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If he brings baggage, it is typically one rolling suitcase and maybe a hanging bag. The TBM could handle it for probably 75% of our flying. The other 25% is where the problems start as there will be golf bags and 2-3 people. Honestly, the TBM is my least favorite option of the bunch. I really don't think it's in the running at all after looking at prices. Probably great for an owner operator, but for the money, it gives up a lot of room and convenience for somebody who crews the plane.

Thanks for the article. I had seen that one and another one from a year earlier and both sing the praises of the airplane. Honestly, I can't find a negative for our operation other than acquisition cost. It's crazy how well they hold their value.

Are you Navy? In VB and flying a modified Pilatus sounds like you may fly right over my house a lot. As for my gig, I love it and I'm thankful every day for it. There is thread from the summer that I started when we were looking to hire another pilot. Company decided to go another direction though so ultimately, I didn't get to help anybody from here out.
 
ppragman said:
I've flown the C90 and the PC12 now, both are good machines, but the PC12 is an engineering marvel. It's the best designed airplane I've ever flown (even if it is chronically boring to operate). The C90Bs I fly are more utilitarian than a corporate model, but they are comfortable enough - regardless, the Pilatus has WAYYY more room, and more utility. You can go a lot further carrying more in the PC12 than you can in the 90 too. You can non-stop ANC - PDX in a PC12 with a legal reserve and more than enough room inside for stuff, and it's faster than the 90. Additionally, the shortfield performance of the PC12 is freaking incredible, we flew ours into and out of 1800' strips on occasion, and while it was a bit "pucker inducing" we had book numbers showing we could do much better. The Pilatus will allow you to say "yes" much more than the 90 will, and the pilot seats are more comfortable. Just my $.02.

If you have any questions at all, shoot me a PM and I'll do whatever I can to point you in the right direction for a PC12, I know a guy who sells them in FL and could probably find you a nice one. It's a damn good airplane, and I'll always recommend one, plus the operating costs are way lower (even though the acquisition costs are much higher).
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That's pretty much exactly what I've been seeing through my research. The Pilatus is the clear winner here other than upfront costs. Well, as long as the boss is ok with single engine and he certainly didn't seem to have a problem with it when I brought it up recently. I really wish there was one locally that we could lease. With only needing it 50-75 hours a year, buying doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
 
SrFnFly227 said:
That's pretty much exactly what I've been seeing through my research. The Pilatus is the clear winner here other than upfront costs. Well, as long as the boss is ok with single engine and he certainly didn't seem to have a problem with it when I brought it up recently. I really wish there was one locally that we could lease. With only needing it 50-75 hours a year, buying doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
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Frankly, I would buy one, then start a charter outfit with it. Honestly, if you cannot make money with a PC12, you're definitely doing something wrong. The other thing about ours is that it barely ever broke - can't speak to the effectiveness or reliability of the NG models, but we had a pre-NG /47 with the Honeywell tubes and a 650/750 combo - we basically never had problems with that airplane and we took it to some goofy places. When it did break, it was more expensive than other equipment - true, but man was it reliable.

With only needing it 50-75 hours per year though, that's pretty low, what other airframes does the boss have or does he only fly 50-75hrs a year?
 
I'd find it hard to believe that Mr. L would like a TBM. Like you said, too small, and on a short leg like up to IAD the speed difference between it and a Pilatus is a few minutes at most (I fly both planes, so if you have any questions I can help you out).

The Pilatus is a great plane. Lots of baggage, big cargo door, big cabin, lav, much quieter inside, great range, hauls a ton, easy to fly, etc... But it's still a single engine plane.
 
auw2fly said:
I'd find it hard to believe that Mr. L would like a TBM. Like you said, too small, and on a short leg like up to IAD the speed difference between it and a Pilatus is a few minutes at most (I fly both planes, so if you have any questions I can help you out).

The Pilatus is a great plane. Lots of baggage, big cargo door, big cabin, lav, much quieter inside, great range, hauls a ton, easy to fly, etc... But it's still a single engine plane.
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You fly out of Wausau yeah? My wife is from that neck of the woods, nice country. I didn't know anyone had a PC12 out there.
 
ppragman said:
Frankly, I would buy one, then start a charter outfit with it. Honestly, if you cannot make money with a PC12, you're definitely doing something wrong. The other thing about ours is that it barely ever broke - can't speak to the effectiveness or reliability of the NG models, but we had a pre-NG /47 with the Honeywell tubes and a 650/750 combo - we basically never had problems with that airplane and we took it to some goofy places. When it did break, it was more expensive than other equipment - true, but man was it reliable.

With only needing it 50-75 hours per year though, that's pretty low, what other airframes does the boss have or does he only fly 50-75hrs a year?
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Family owns a Challenger 601. The King Air is dry leased by one of his companies. Personal travel is done in the Challenger and the King Air is used to get him back and forth between Norfolk and Dulles and then to get to business meetings elsewhere on the east coast. I fly a total of 250 per year spread between the two, but only have about 70 hours of King Air time in the 14 months that I've been flying it. 6 months of that the previous pilot and I were alternating trips since we fly it single pilot, so 75 a year is probably pretty accurate.

If he buys something, it will almost definitely be placed on the same management certificate that the Challenger is on. I've been talking a lot with the charter manager and we've run the numbers. The Pilatus would be outstanding in our market. The management company currently operates a King Air 200, Citation Bravo, and 2 601s. The 200 and Bravo both have more work than they can handle. A lot of that is owner flights though, so there is left over charter that our company gives out to other operators. A plane the size of the 200, but with operating costs of the 90 or lower would sell very well in our market.
 
auw2fly said:
I'd find it hard to believe that Mr. L would like a TBM. Like you said, too small, and on a short leg like up to IAD the speed difference between it and a Pilatus is a few minutes at most (I fly both planes, so if you have any questions I can help you out).

The Pilatus is a great plane. Lots of baggage, big cargo door, big cabin, lav, much quieter inside, great range, hauls a ton, easy to fly, etc... But it's still a single engine plane.
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I don't think he'd be all that interested in the TBM either, but I haven't had the opportunity to really talk to him about this yet. I just found out on Tuesday that the King Air is going up for sale. I fly him this afternoon though, so we'll have a good chance to talk.
 
auw2fly said:
Affirm. There's actually quite a few 12's in the area now.
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Well, I'll be damned. That's good! Honestly, that part of the country is pretty short on charter companies in my opinion for the amount of business interests in the region.
 
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