Mom & Pop vs ATP

BarbieDreamPilot said:
Never said I didn't get structure at my 61 school. Actually it was great. I have several posts here about ATP and I make it very clear why I don't care for that pilot mill. Pre and post flights briefings are definitely review - I never advocated for anything different. That's a great story about studying hard; so did I. But when you don't pay an instructor for his/her work, then don't expect them to do it for free. I don't think pilots should be signing up for ATP on the hopes that their assigned CFI is willing to stick around for 15 minutes of free instruction.
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You mean things like this?

BarbieDreamPilot said:
Yep - everyone pays up front for a whole program. I ignored all the advice and planned to do everything through CFI, CFII, MEI there, but the instruction was so poor for CFI that I left. I received no money back. Everyone pays up front, and they get a "discount" on the instruction, so that if you cash out early they multiply the hours flown by some ridiculous number and then use the following formula to screw you.

(up front payment amount) - (hours flown x crazy rate) = refund (usually zero)
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I went to ATP. I did well there. Yes, it was expensive. But it also landed me my first 135 gig because of the multi time I walked away with. You knew going in (or at least should have) that when you elect to leave early, you get dinged. All of the instructors I had were good. I got pre flight briefs and post flight de-briefs. We had a few people complain about things, and they were immediately addressed. I've seen instructors do the same thing you speak of at mom and pop joints. If you want something, speak up for it.

I'm not trying to defend ATP here. But I am calling you out to the carpet for "getting screwed" when you should have known what was coming. They send you all of that info before you give them a dollar.
 
mshunter said:
You mean things like this?



I went to ATP. I did well there. Yes, it was expensive. But it also landed me my first 135 gig because of the multi time I walked away with. You knew going in (or at least should have) that when you elect to leave early, you get dinged. All of the instructors I had were good. I got pre flight briefs and post flight de-briefs. We had a few people complain about things, and they were immediately addressed. I've seen instructors do the same thing you speak of at mom and pop joints. If you want something, speak up for it.

I'm not trying to defend ATP here. But I am calling you out to the carpet for "getting screwed" when you should have known what was coming. They send you all of that info before you give them a dollar.
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I knew it walking in, and I'm still glad I left.

Not everyone can finance training, so for those that don't want to save and pay as they go it is sometimes the only option, but like you said you do have to study your ass off to succeed. No hand holding, and sometimes you have to teach yourself on the ground and in the air. I think 5 years ago the 100 multi time was more valuable for airlines.
 
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BarbieDreamPilot said:
I knew it walking in, and I'm still glad I left.

Not everyone can finance training, so for those that don't want to save and pay as they go it is sometimes the only option, but like you said you do have to study your ass off to succeed. No hand holding, and sometimes you have to teach yourself on the ground and in the air. I think 5 years ago the 100 multi time was more valuable for airlines.
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I agree, 100%. But on the same token, I never held a students hand.

"Here is what we are going to work on next time. I expect you to have some questions."

I also think it's BS that ATP has the partial refund policy. But, I used that for motivation.
 
The flight training was, and is, a weird critter.

It's the only gig I can think of where people pay a fat amount of coin to sit in a hopelessly bland office building, completely devoid of any of the interest or excitement of the actual activity.

I spent a tour or two at "BigNameSchoolCo" and forked over a car-sized check or two. For that cash I got a stale classroom with white-washed walls, with gymnasium arts-and-crafts-meet folding table and chairs, and it was one of the BETTER places to train.

I've never seen another business that is so scruffy on the actual training environment that does so little to actually excite people about what it is they're doing. It's hopelessly bland...like you're learning the ins and outs of insurance underwriting.

Richman
 
ScorpionStinger said:
Someone gets it!

It's a choice to be ignorant and uninformed. It's a choice to be educated and think outside box. I don't feel sorry for those with huge flight training costs. Its a choice. Go go go go get there fast! Or become the best aviator possible, learning from instructors and others who have been in the industry over 2 years.
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I haven't completely discounted ATP. Paying for the multi time might be unnecessary, but for spme us, momemtum is everything in flight training. I started training in 2007, and this is my 4th attempt towards my PPL, because I ran out of money the previous times. I also have a full time job that makes it hard for me to dedicate all I have to my training. I see nothing wrong with taking an intensive route over a few months and getting it done.
 
BCTAv8r said:
I haven't completely discounted ATP. Paying for the multi time might be unnecessary, but for spme us, momemtum is everything in flight training. I started training in 2007, and this is my 4th attempt towards my PPL, because I ran out of money the previous times. I also have a full time job that makes it hard for me to dedicate all I have to my training. I see nothing wrong with taking an intensive route over a few months and getting it done.
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If you have a full time job ATP might be out, the self paced program has been cancelled.....



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TransPac in Phoenix has it at $55k for Commercial Multi with everything included (examiner fees, written tests, etc.) in a 37 week program. I wish I knew more details but I don't start working there for a few weeks. Just to give you a quote for another Arizona school.
 
Student perspective: 37 weeks? Lol.... Find an airport more efficient..... 0.4 to 0.5 on the ramp each flight would make me rip my hair off as a student.

FBO Time building CFI perspective: Great! Perfect! Taxi slow if you want to.

Chinese program Time building CFI perspective: Damn its not enough time to instruct this person! I Need to conserve all these wasted hobbs time. I need to keep students flt hrs under company budgeted h. Damn procedures!
 
ScorpionStinger said:
Student perspective: 37 weeks? Lol.... Find an airport more efficient..... 0.4 to 0.5 on the ramp each flight would make me rip my hair off as a student.

FBO Time building CFI perspective: Great! Perfect! Taxi slow if you want to.

Chinese program Time building CFI perspective: Damn its not enough time to instruct this person! I Need to conserve all these wasted hobbs time. I need to keep students flt hrs under company budgeted h. Damn procedures!
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It's usually about 15 minutes. There's advantages to learning how to fly out of a busy airport too. I learned how to fly out of Deer Valley, and every other airport has been extremely easy since (including Sky Harbor). I can't imagine learning to fly at a small airport and then trying to fly into Deer Valley.
 
kryan11 said:
It's usually about 15 minutes. There's advantages to learning how to fly out of a busy airport too. I learned how to fly out of Deer Valley, and every other airport has been extremely easy since (including Sky Harbor). I can't imagine learning to fly at a small airport and then trying to fly into Deer Valley.
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Yup, and I know CFI's who can't even talk to Center because they don't know what to say. They did their training in an uncontrolled environment and never cared to learn about the controlled environment, other than when they were rarely forced too. I wouldn't take back my extra money for the 15-20 minutes extra I spent for some flights because of that training that you get.

Pick and choose your battles but once you cut the corners on purpose, it'll eventually catch up to you.
 
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If I had to do over (and I've only got PPL and close to my instrument almost 2 years since I stated), I'd probably mix it up. Get the PPL at a mom and pop outfit. Enjoy the training and explore local places. Get the Instrument and comms at an ATP type place, where you can knock it out fast and get it done and over with. Not flying enough and regularly, is what put me in a bad spot. Granted rentals are few and far in between where I live.

My thoughts.
 
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