Delta Air Lines Against ATC Privatization

milleR said:
How many 135 piston operators run daily compared to turbine 91 (non K) in the system?
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Sorry, can't remember. Posted all of that stuff before in previous user fees threads, so you can go digging if you'd like.
 
pianokeys said:
We privatized our ATC in Canada. Nav Canada runs the show now, not Transport Canada anymore. Yes, there are fees, and the fees are passed onto the flying public on their ticket fares. AC or WS won't publish how much Nav Canada charges them for use per flight, they just wrap it up in the ticket.

Nav Canada isn't an NPO like some would believe, they post profits and invest that money in multiple things like markets or new technology like space based ADS-B.

The good news is, when the government privatized ATC, they set up legislation that states that Nav Canada can only rip off users so much. It would be illegal for them to overcharge, they're only allowed to charge what it actually costs them to do whatever your paying for.
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Spoke to some NAV Canada guys last year. It was definitely along the lines of LULZ, you wouldn't believe all the new goodies we got!
 
wheelsup said:
I'm a firm believer in technology reducing costs. It's happened for decades, as technology improves costs come down significantly. There are a few industries where this doesn't hold true. One is in the medical field, and the second is in aviation.

I really don't think the sole act of privatizing ATC will reduce costs and make it more efficient. What will is the FAA getting out of its own way and getting on board with technology and using it to its full capability. The problem isn't ATC per se, it's the FAA side of it not being able to change with the times.

The entire idea of 1-800-WX-BRIEF needs to be done away with. It worked well when you still had NDB approaches, no smartphones and limited access to internet. Technology has completely changed the way people obtain weather and file flight plans. The new way is more accurate, with more information available.

Yes, I know not everyone has an internet connection. I'm sorry, if you're playing in field where it costs $70/hr to operate even the most basic airplane, you have absolutely zero to complain about having a $35/month smartphone plan to access the internet and file a flight plan. The hammer needs to come down, the briefers are a waste of tax payer dollars and the entire system is antiquated.

Look at where things have gone this year. Prior to this year, you had to purchase a fairly expensive ADS-B receiver to display traffic/weather info. Now you can build one for under $100 and use a cheap used iPad to obtain that info.

Technology will fix our ATC issues. If the FAA will allow it.
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Whats our largest issue? I'm guessing delays. What level of technology is good enough in your book to allow air carrier type airplanes on the same runway at the same time landing and departing? How far away are we from Boeing's/Arbi doing formation departures and overhead flight splits?
 
If they don't clean up the hiring process, the FAA won't be able to staff the facilities with competent controllers faster than controllers retire. I'm hearing wash-out rates are terrible and the way the FAA doesn't give new-hires any idea of where they're going to end up until a few days time in some cases is leading to many walking away from OKC. I see this privatization happening unless things change big time with the staffing and hiring.
 
ChasenSFO said:
If they don't clean up the hiring process, the FAA won't be able to staff the facilities with competent controllers faster than controllers retire. I'm hearing wash-out rates are terrible and the way the FAA doesn't give new-hires any idea of where they're going to end up until a few days time in some cases is leading to many walking away from OKC. I see this privatization happening unless things change big time with the staffing and hiring.
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Staffing is probably the main reason I retired the first day I was eligible. Ridiculous washout rates and 8 years of 600+ hours a year of OT, and I left for the sandbox.
 
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pianokeys said:
We privatized our ATC in Canada. Nav Canada runs the show now, not Transport Canada anymore. Yes, there are fees, and the fees are passed onto the flying public on their ticket fares. AC or WS won't publish how much Nav Canada charges them for use per flight, they just wrap it up in the ticket.

Nav Canada isn't an NPO like some would believe, they post profits and invest that money in multiple things like markets or new technology like space based ADS-B.

The good news is, when the government privatized ATC, they set up legislation that states that Nav Canada can only rip off users so much. It would be illegal for them to overcharge, they're only allowed to charge what it actually costs them to do whatever your paying for.
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That would NEVER happen here... some senator in the committee would be from the same state as the company given the contract and would allow raping and pillaging.
 
A80TRACON said:
Staffing is probably the main reason I retired the first day I was eligible. Ridiculous washout rates and 8 years of 600+ hours a year of OT, and I left for the sandbox.
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Yep. At SFO alone I know a few people with CTI degrees, college degrees, years of ramp tower experience, aviation backgrounds(worked at airlines, FBOs, ect), and pilots licences who still can't get a shot at the AT-SAT due to that stupid Biographical Questionnaire. Yet if you're a 19 year old kid who's worked at Rite-Aide for 3 years and never been on a plane before who has "the right personality", hey, welcome to OKC.

Sounds like a perfect plan to keep the skies running safely and efficiently decades from now.
 
z987k said:
You'll have to move to Alaska. There'll be a rider just like for flight service to keep it government(useful so people don't die).
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Amen. One of my coworkers was in the Great White North during the FSS transfer. After transferring to a a Center in the lower 48, FSS called for a clearance. Blah Blah Blah expect flight level whatever blah blah blah. FSS actually asked what he meant by flight level. Long story short after that question he hung up, FSS redialed, repeat the clearance, question and hang up 3 times.

I doubted his story for about 6 months. All it took was trying to call FSS on the dial line to forward a severe icing PIREP during a winter holiday. After two minutes of ringing I called dial line number 2. Two minutes of ringing I called line 3 who picked up. I was actually berated for calling a briefer with a PIREP rather than whomever normally handles the dial lines. My relief showed up during my being chewed out so I hung up and called WXBRIEF on my cell to forward. I've forwarded 3 PIREPS on my phone so far from the break room. That's, uh, that's not good.
 
ChasenSFO said:
If they don't clean up the hiring process, the FAA won't be able to staff the facilities with competent controllers faster than controllers retire. I'm hearing wash-out rates are terrible and the way the FAA doesn't give new-hires any idea of where they're going to end up until a few days time in some cases is leading to many walking away from OKC. I see this privatization happening unless things change big time with the staffing and hiring.
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Nav Canadas wash-out rates are insane too. My buddy got "hired" in a class of fifteen, he washed-out when it was just him and two other people. The second person only qualified for flight planning, and the only person that passed the whole course was a former life-guard. Most of his class was former pilots, AMEs, flight dispatchers, and he himself had a background in aviation.

The worst thing is, they don't pay you during training at all, and you have to pay for your training yourself. So for six months you go in debt and have no income, and can be washed-out at any time.
 
pianokeys said:
the only person that passed the whole course was a former life-guard. Most of his class was former pilots, AMEs, flight dispatchers, and he himself had a background in aviation.
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When starting up it's hacking arm, the Army has found that some of the best recruits are coming from the lower ranks - the cooks, mechanics, HVAC guys, etc. Kinda interesting.
 
pianokeys said:
Nav Canadas wash-out rates are insane too. My buddy got "hired" in a class of fifteen, he washed-out when it was just him and two other people. The second person only qualified for flight planning, and the only person that passed the whole course was a former life-guard. Most of his class was former pilots, AMEs, flight dispatchers, and he himself had a background in aviation.

The worst thing is, they don't pay you during training at all, and you have to pay for your training yourself. So for six months you go in debt and have no income, and can be washed-out at any time.
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Yikes. Sounds worse than here in some respects.
 
pianokeys said:
Nav Canadas wash-out rates are insane too. My buddy got "hired" in a class of fifteen, he washed-out when it was just him and two other people. The second person only qualified for flight planning, and the only person that passed the whole course was a former life-guard. Most of his class was former pilots, AMEs, flight dispatchers, and he himself had a background in aviation.

The worst thing is, they don't pay you during training at all, and you have to pay for your training yourself. So for six months you go in debt and have no income, and can be washed-out at any time.
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I wonder how much of that can be related to learning a new task vs relearning how to do a task their way.
 
Derg said:
I'm uneasy about user fees.

It just feels like the way tolls were sold in Florida.

The roads still suck. Traffic is still thick and its ultimately just a time suck.

Or private prisons.
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User fees up here anyway are such a minuscule fraction of cost

Airlines here charge an average flat $15 ATC charge, per head, some flights they actually make some money it, some flights they lose... I would assume overall it's a wash, and this day and age $15 will not change anyone's mind about flying.

You can actually go on Navs website and look up a toll estimator, punch in type, route flown, it gives you an idea of what you will pay.

The fees are such an incredibly small portion of the cost, and transferred to the pax anyway; but they money provided to any ANS charging is spent DIRECTLY back into the system, which pays for all kinds of improvements, which in turn reduces operating costs for the airlines.
 
pianokeys said:
Nav Canadas wash-out rates are insane too. My buddy got "hired" in a class of fifteen, he washed-out when it was just him and two other people. The second person only qualified for flight planning, and the only person that passed the whole course was a former life-guard. Most of his class was former pilots, AMEs, flight dispatchers, and he himself had a background in aviation.

The worst thing is, they don't pay you during training at all, and you have to pay for your training yourself. So for six months you go in debt and have no income, and can be washed-out at any time.
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This post is not entirely accurate

You will be paid during the OJT portion of your training... Also the period of training with no pay is longer than six months for IFR stream, it varies per unit,the total IFR training from in the door to qualification is almost two years, again slight variance per unit.

I'm curious where he trained the success rate was that poor, as it would be the first I've heard it ever being that bad, although quite obviously the requirements are stringent.

It's hard for people off the street to believe sometimes, but we work our tails off to get people qualified, but we can't qualify someone because they're a good person, either you meet the standard or you don't. Applicants know this getting in the door.
 
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