AWAC TA Failed

[Maurus]

AWAC came to the pilots to extract cuts and the 2003 was signed. It was based on the 2001 contract. The savings were never handed to UAL and they were cut in bankruptcy court. That's when they invested in the Airways merger and bought themselves a seat at the table.

Since AWAC wasn't reaffirmed in the UAL bankruptcy United didn't keep the savings. AWAC was still paid at the original rates and a portion of that $175 mil came from that difference but the owners used another company, Eastshore Holdings, to invest in the Airways merger.

No major airlines were making money back then. Cost plus is better than at risk in that scenario, but the margins were still thin. The pre 9/11 contracts were slowly coming up for amendment or adjusted during bankruptcy ending the 'golden era' of the commuters. Prior to 9/11 AWAC never bid on flying, they had such a close relationship with UAL a phone call added more flying.

So you are essentially confirming that the current contract was negotiated during a time where things were better for AWAC (2001). Even with the concession of 2003 it is better than most (if not all) companies that AWAC now has to directly compete with via RFPs.

Basically expecting any real improvements to the current contract is highly unlikely.

 

[wheelsup]

So you are essentially confirming that the current contract was negotiated during a time where things were better for AWAC (2001). Even with the concession of 2003 it is better than most (if not all) companies that AWAC now has to directly compete with via RFPs.

Basically expecting any real improvements to the current contract is highly unlikely.

Not at all. In 2003 when the current contract was signed how were things in the industry? There were many things in the '01 contract that were gutted in the '03 contract. Pay (10%-15% IIRC), trip rig (4:1 from 3.5:1), a bunch of reserve language, etc.

Was the industry making money hand over fist like they are now? Or were they losing billions a year? I'm seriously speechless that anyone would actually believe that 2003 was a better environment to negotiate in than today, especially at the commuter level, where unions actually have some leverage with the shortage nowadays.

This new TA as an overall package was cost neutral at minimum (and included a lot of open ended language like the healthcare increases), why vote yes?

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Sorry, but 2003 was a much better negotiating environment for the regionals than today. Not even close, in fact. The cost-plus CPAs of the early 2000s were a negotiating wet dream. Sure, not as good an environment as pre-9/11, when the same cost-plus deals were there with massive industry profits, but still a lot better than today when cost-plus is a relic of the past and everybody is being squeezed.

 

[Blackhawk]

And of course the FAA knows it would not be worth your dollar to sue for civil damages.

Sorry, but 2003 was a much better negotiating environment for the regionals than today. Not even close, in fact. The cost-plus CPAs of the early 2000s were a negotiating wet dream. Sure, not as good an environment as pre-9/11, when the same cost-plus deals were there with massive industry profits, but still a lot better than today when cost-plus is a relic of the past and everybody is being squeezed.

But... but... The majors are making massive profits. We regional pilots need only demand our share of the pie and it will be given.

 

[Screaming_Emu]

Todd is right (damn I feel dirty). But so are the no voters.

There is a finite amount of money coming in from the mainline overlords. But that isn't going to change until everybody stands up for themselves. Unless you're a lifer, everyone's goal SHOULD be to regain flying to the mainline level. Every contract that pilots accept that is less than we're worth further justifies the practice of outsourcing flying to the regionals. Pick your poison I suppose.

 

[Blackhawk]

Todd is right (damn I feel dirty). But so are the no voters.

There is a finite amount of money coming in from the mainline overlords. But that isn't going to change until everybody stands up for themselves. Unless you're a lifer, everyone's goal SHOULD be to regain flying to the mainline level. Every contract that pilots accept that is less than we're worth further justifies the practice of outsourcing flying to the regionals. Pick your poison I suppose.

It is a tough call. Demand a better contract and the flying is given to Go-Jet, even though their numbers are horrible.
Actually most of the lifers WANT good contracts as we are going to be here either way. We're just not into the "let's burn the ______ down" mentality.

 

[wheelsup]

Sorry, but 2003 was a much better negotiating environment for the regionals than today. Not even close, in fact. The cost-plus CPAs of the early 2000s were a negotiating wet dream. Sure, not as good an environment as pre-9/11, when the same cost-plus deals were there with massive industry profits, but still a lot better than today when cost-plus is a relic of the past and everybody is being squeezed.

You're nuts. I'm sorry but $40/hr starting pay (even adjusted for inflation) wasn't anywhere close to being on the radar back then. I'd wager that this is the single best negotiating environment for the commuters in history. We are already seeing a topping race for whom has the best starting pay.

My personal opinion is what we are seeing is posturing by the majors. They got away with it going after Eagle, but that crap won't fly in another 1-2 years. I really don't feel the flying the commuters do can be cost effective at the majors.

 

[wheelsup]

Todd is right (damn I feel dirty). But so are the no voters.

There is a finite amount of money coming in from the mainline overlords. But that isn't going to change until everybody stands up for themselves. Unless you're a lifer, everyone's goal SHOULD be to regain flying to the mainline level. Every contract that pilots accept that is less than we're worth further justifies the practice of outsourcing flying to the regionals. Pick your poison I suppose.

It depends on the carrier. AA isn't going to up their contract rates to Republic because it will also benefit United and Delta. For carriers that only fly for one partner (ie AWAC) AA can kick in additional reimbursement (if they want to) to ensure the feed is there. This is exactly the direction Delta has gone with Endeavor.

However at AA I would think they'd rather throw that money to their WO's down the road. I'm really not sure where AWAC fits into their long term planning, however. If the WO's can continue to be fully staffed AWAC won't matter.

Another wildcard is XJT. As their United flying draws down the pilots will become more valuable. IIRC XJT is scheduled to part their last aircraft towards the end of 2017, that isn't that far away to draw down 200+ aircraft and 2000+ pilots. That will certainly act as an accumulator in the 'market'.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

You're nuts. I'm sorry but $40/hr starting pay (even adjusted for inflation) wasn't anywhere close to being on the radar back then. I'd wager that this is the single best negotiating environment for the commuters in history. We are already seeing a topping race for whom has the best starting pay. My personal opinion is what we are seeing is posturing by the majors. They got away with it going after Eagle, but that crap won't fly in another 1-2 years. I really don't feel the flying the commuters do can be cost effective at the majors.

Typical pilot. Turn straight to Section 4 and look at a particular pay rate and think that that represents a CBA.

 

[wheelsup]

Typical pilot. Turn straight to Section 4 and look at a particular pay rate and think that that represents a CBA.

So, you really think the stuff the company got was worth the $20k increase in first year pay? Sincerely doubtful.

In 2003 not only were pay cuts being handed down but also cuts in the other areas of the contract. Moot point.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

So, you really think the stuff the company got was worth the $20k increase in first year pay? Sincerely doubtful.

Hint: the company wanted the first year pay increase because it solved their problem while not requiring them to raise overall pay rates.

 

[Blackhawk]

You're nuts. I'm sorry but $40/hr starting pay (even adjusted for inflation) wasn't anywhere close to being on the radar back then. I'd wager that this is the single best negotiating environment for the commuters in history. We are already seeing a topping race for whom has the best starting pay.

My personal opinion is what we are seeing is posturing by the majors. They got away with it going after Eagle, but that crap won't fly in another 1-2 years. I really don't feel the flying the commuters do can be cost effective at the majors.

Actually not too far off the mark. $40 in 2015 was about $27 in 2003 according to my calculators. My second year FO pay in 1999 was $32/hour in the ATR-72 if I remember correctly. Today that would be equivalent to $57.50/hour.
Once again shows how the inflationary policies of this government hurts those it claims to help.

 

[wheelsup]

Actually not too far off the mark. $40 in 2015 was about $27 in 2003 according to my calculators. My second year FO pay in 1999 was $32/hour in the ATR-72 if I remember correctly. Today that would be equivalent to $57.50/hour.
Once again shows how the inflationary policies of this government hurts those it claims to help.

Great point. Even the new AWAC TA rates don't recapture inflation adjusted wages.

 

[Blackhawk]

Great point. Even the new AWAC TA rates don't recapture inflation adjusted wages.

True, but that is not the fault of AWAC. That is the fault of a government that erodes the value of wages, especially of workers on the lowest rung.
A company can only pay employees wages that are equivalent to the goods and/or services produced by those employees while leaving room for expenses and profit margin. That's why I laugh when I hear people talking about being paid what they are worth. What someone thinks they are worth often has little to do with the reality of what they produce.

 

[scooter2525]

Typical pilot. Turn straight to Section 4 and look at a particular pay rate and think that that represents a CBA.

It's a very good start in some cases.

 

[BobDDuck]

Typical pilot. Turn straight to Section 4 and look at a particular pay rate and think that that represents a CBA.

Who the hell has compensation is Section 4?

It's a very good start in some cases.

Not really. Pay is just a number small part of the equation. I'd be looking at Section 1 and the whatever section scheduling is in and then pay. And then probably R&I.

 

[ScorpionStinger]

Just my opinion of course, but it sounds like the AWAC pilot group is giving the company up for dead, and just trying to get what it can before the end. If that's the goal, then so be it. Better for me and my employer. But if long term survival is the goal then it would seem a better strategy to keep costs where they are and let the rest of the FFD industry leap-frog ahead of you, thus putting AWAC in a more competitive position for future flying contracts.

Why don't you just volunteer a pay cut and work for your company for below minimum wage for 4-5 years. You'll save them money! Lots of it! CEO will get a 4 million increase in pay & benefits package, along with other executives.

But for you, lol, the best part is for you, they'll reward your hard work with MORE WORK, and Shinny tools to do more work... WooHooo! Oooh yeah, for even lower pay than 5 years ago, all for an additional 5 year! So awesome! So BRILLIANT!

Some people!

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Who the hell has compensation is Section 4?

Relatively common.

Section 1 - Scope
Section 2 - Definitions
Section 3 - Seniority
Section 4 - Compensation

Not really. Pay is just a number small part of the equation. I'd be looking at Section 1 and the whatever section scheduling is in and then pay. And then probably R&I.

Yep.

 

[Flying Saluki]

Why don't you just volunteer a pay cut and work for your company for below minimum wage for 4-5 years. You'll save them money! Lots of it! CEO will get a 4 million increase in pay & benefits package, along with other executives.

But for you, lol, the best part is for you, they'll reward your hard work with MORE WORK, and Shinny tools to do more work... WooHooo! Oooh yeah, for even lower pay than 5 years ago, all for an additional 5 year! So awesome! So BRILLIANT!

Some people!

What are you getting mad at me for? I'm just stating my opinion based on observation. If I'm wrong, then say so. What's the goal? Pay increases? Or job security? It seems to me that if you get the latter first, then the former will come. If done in the reverse order; not so much.

In my opinion, the commonly held macroview of the FFD industry does not apply to AWAC. AWAC is poorly positioned to compete for work in the FFD sector. To survive and gain flying contracts, AWAC must be able to show prospective customers that it has a stable labor situation and can provide desired services at competitive costs. AWAC's labor situation is not stable, it does not have a product that customers want (70+ seat aircraft),and its costs are too high. Again, if I'm wrong, say so.

And you're right; I'm fine with the prospect of my employer getting more work, because that's the only way to have real, meaningful job security. That said, I'd rather see AWAC survive.

 

[BobDDuck]

Relatively common.

Section 1 - Scope
Section 2 - Definitions
Section 3 - Seniority
Section 4 - Compensation

Umm... Nope.

Just ran through the ones I had sitting in a research folder...

Delta, Alaska, American, United, Hawaiian, Spirit, Fedex, Eagle and PSA are all Section 3.

Southwest and Frontier are Section 4.