AWAC TA Failed

MOGuy424 said:
Oh people like you afflicted with bendoverandtakeituptheass-itus make me feel sorry for the future. Not necessarily every one of those had to be met, but the only one offered was per diem and it was a measly increase. Ya know people probably said that our current contract was unworkable in the "real world" as you so elegantly put it when it was in production, but alas here we sit with a "regional" industry leading contract that has many many more benefits than some major airline contracts. SO, why don't you continue selling your propaganda to the regional pilots that have the same affliction you do, there are plenty out there gullible enough to listen.

Cheers.
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There is a difference between selling propaganda and telling things like they are. I don't think ATN_PILOT told you to bend over. I'm pretty sure he is as upset with the FFD issues as you are. I'm in the same boat. I work for an airline that has an "expensive" contract, but is consistently at the top for most measured factors, CCF, D:0, A:14. What does that get us with the majors? Nothing but "thanks". Flying is still awarded to the lowest bidder no matter how horrible their numbers or how unrealistic their expectations of safely fielding new airplanes with new pilots.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
So in other words, the only thing that could get a yes vote would be something completely unworkable in the real world? Got it.
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Welcome to the new regional paradigm. Management groups with a fixed income as a result of the CPA model, and pilot groups who are unwilling to recognize that fixed income as a reasonable reason for little or no career gains while billions in profits are rolling in.

I expect to see more of the same, resulting in more issues and lawsuits within the major/CPA carrier relationships. I'm just wondering if there will be a point at which majors begin to value performance over a percent or two of cost.
 
MOGuy424 said:
Oh people like you afflicted with bendoverandtakeituptheass-itus make me feel sorry for the future. Not necessarily every one of those had to be met, but the only one offered was per diem and it was a measly increase. Ya know people probably said that our current contract was unworkable in the "real world" as you so elegantly put it when it was in production, but alas here we sit with a "regional" industry leading contract that has many many more benefits than some major airline contracts. SO, why don't you continue selling your propaganda to the regional pilots that have the same affliction you do, there are plenty out there gullible enough to listen.

Cheers.
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I was negotiating contract improvements probably before you flew your first hour, so shove your canned "bend over and take it" answers where the sun don't shine. I've never voted for or negotiated a concessionary LOA, let alone CBA. And you'll notice I never told you that you should have voted for this specific TA. I don't know enough about it to say one way or the other. I was responding only to your pie-in-the-sky dream CBA that will never happen in this lifetime. But if you don't want to hear from people that actually have experience negotiating billion dollar contracts, and would rather listen to crew room lawyers, then have at it.
 
Table Two said:
It sure would be funny if on our 50th anniversary year the company decided to close up shop because we couldn't find any more flying due to this TA being voted down.

Full pay to the last day. Good luck replacing our lift quickly.
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Somehow I don't think the long-term employees of AWAC will be laughing very much.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
So in other words, the only thing that could get a yes vote would be something completely unworkable in the real world? Got it.
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Um no?

But how about not giving up rest rules or increase our health insurance premiums? Nobody here is asking for mainline pay. Current book was better than what we were offered.
 
MOGuy424 said:
Oh people like you afflicted with bendoverandtakeituptheass-itus make me feel sorry for the future. Not necessarily every one of those had to be met, but the only one offered was per diem and it was a measly increase. Ya know people probably said that our current contract was unworkable in the "real world" as you so elegantly put it when it was in production, but alas here we sit with a "regional" industry leading contract that has many many more benefits than some major airline contracts. SO, why don't you continue selling your propaganda to the regional pilots that have the same affliction you do, there are plenty out there gullible enough to listen.

Cheers.
Click to expand...

Your current contract was made during a time when regionals were essentially growing money. Same as other "leading" contracts. The Regional model has changed significantly since the signing of your contract (2003). Add in the fact that the company only has old fuel guzzling -200s to fly means that your airline's product is very expensive and hard to market.

Does this mean you should bend over an take what you viewed as concessions? I honestly don't know. I don't have access to the company financials and you likely don't either(private companies are quite secretive). All I do know is that your QOL and other benefits far outweigh what other airlines with "higher" pay scales have. Those benefits can cause the hourly number to drop a lot. I wouldn't expect a meaningful hourly pay raise without losing some other benefits.

Other than first year guys AWAC pilots likely still make more money than pilots at airlines with recent pay hikes. The hourly number isn't an accurate indicator of your final pay.
 
Maurus said:
Your current contract was made during a time when regionals were essentially growing money. Same as other "leading" contracts. The Regional model has changed significantly since the signing of your contract (2003). Add in the fact that the company only has old fuel guzzling -200s to fly means that your airline's product is very expensive and hard to market.

Does this mean you should bend over an take what you viewed as concessions? I honestly don't know. I don't have access to the company financials and you likely don't either(private companies are quite secretive). All I do know is that your QOL and other benefits far outweigh what other airlines with "higher" pay scales have. Those benefits can cause the hourly number to drop a lot. I wouldn't expect a meaningful hourly pay raise without losing some other benefits.

Other than first year guys AWAC pilots likely still make more money than pilots at airlines with recent pay hikes. The hourly number isn't an accurate indicator of your final pay.
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I don't quite think you have a grasp on how bad of shape the industry was in in 2003. Growing money? Hardly. That 2003 agreement was an amendment to the 2001 contract which attempted to lower costs because AWAC was shed in UAL's bankruptcy.
 
BobDDuck said:
How big of an insurance bump was it. And when was the last time there was a premium increase, or was it based on an uncapped percentage of the total plan costs?
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It was roughly a 8% bump in insurance costs. From 25% to 27% of premium paid.

The union spin was that the increase in per diem balanced it out. Despite still having a per diem below the average at the commuter level.

I'm surprised it got voted down by only 67%, I was expecting a much higher NO turnout. It was a POS offer.
 
wheelsup said:
I don't quite think you have a grasp on how bad of shape the industry was in in 2003. Growing money? Hardly. That 2003 agreement was an amendment to the 2001 contract which attempted to lower costs because AWAC was shed in UAL's bankruptcy.
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I was pretty sure during that time the regionals as a whole had a way better model for making money. The Legacies were suffering but the regionals were starting to explode in size and the agreements in place with the legacies essentially guaranteed a profit.

According to Wiki AWAC didn't lose their UAL contract until 2005 where they somehow had 175 million to invest in US Airways. Other than losing that UAL contract in 2005 it is hard to say they were hurting.

I know I could be completely wrong in this. Searching for how the regionals were paid back then isn't exactly easy even though I know it was once explained here on JC.
 
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Maurus said:
I was pretty sure during that time the regionals as a whole had a way better model for making money. The Legacies were suffering but the regionals were starting to explode in size and the agreements in place with the legacies essentially guaranteed a profit.

According to Wiki AWAC didn't lose their UAL contract until 2005 where they somehow had 175 million to invest in US Airways. Other than losing that UAL contract in 2005 it is hard to say they were hurting.

I know I could be completely wrong in this. Searching for how the regionals were paid back then isn't exactly easy even though I know it was once explained here on JC.
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AWAC came to the pilots to extract cuts and the 2003 was signed. It was based on the 2001 contract. The savings were never handed to UAL and they were cut in bankruptcy court. That's when they invested in the Airways merger and bought themselves a seat at the table.

Since AWAC wasn't reaffirmed in the UAL bankruptcy United didn't keep the savings. AWAC was still paid at the original rates and a portion of that $175 mil came from that difference but the owners used another company, Eastshore Holdings, to invest in the Airways merger.

No major airlines were making money back then. Cost plus is better than at risk in that scenario, but the margins were still thin. The pre 9/11 contracts were slowly coming up for amendment or adjusted during bankruptcy ending the 'golden era' of the commuters. Prior to 9/11 AWAC never bid on flying, they had such a close relationship with UAL a phone call added more flying.
 
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wheelsup said:
It was roughly a 8% bump in insurance costs. From 25% to 27% of premium paid.
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Keep in mind that AWAC hadn't had an increase in insurance costs (they were capped by a dollar figure and hit the cap in 2006) for 9 years. Medical inflation has been running 3% to 6% every year. I'd say 8% is on the low end of what could have happened if the group faced full exposure to the market.
 
BobDDuck said:
Keep in mind that AWAC hadn't had an increase in insurance costs (they were capped by a dollar figure and hit the cap in 2006) for 9 years. Medical inflation has been running 3% to 6% every year. I'd say 8% is on the low end of what could have happened if the group faced full exposure to the market.
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Medical costs went up each year, what didn't was the percentage of contributions.

I'm not sure who told you there was a cap. I paid more every year for the same plan.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
So in other words, the only thing that could get a yes vote would be something completely unworkable in the real world? Got it.
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In other words, we are unwilling to vote for less than current book. If that is "completely unworkable in the real world", then myself and many others are ok with riding what we have as long as it goes. Remember, this was sold as a cost neutral(ish) TA, so theoretically it had nothing to do with reducing our costs.

Side note to no one in particular: We are all well aware of popular opinion that we are too expensive, have obsolete equipment, etc. Thanks for your concern.
 
BobDDuck said:
Keep in mind that AWAC hadn't had an increase in insurance costs (they were capped by a dollar figure and hit the cap in 2006) for 9 years. Medical inflation has been running 3% to 6% every year. I'd say 8% is on the low end of what could have happened if the group faced full exposure to the market.
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So my medical costs should be adjusted for inflation but not my pay?
 
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