JetBlue Announces an Ab Initio Program

ALPA can get spun up about this all they want, but at the end of the day the union doesn't set hiring policy. Believe me, we went through all that at Pinnacle with the whole JetU thing. ALPA would talk about supply and demand along with the fact we were in contract negotiations, and the company would say "Sorry, you don't get to say who we hire and don't." Unless there's a section in the contract or a LOA about it, ALPA doesn't have a lot of say in the matter other than sending off e-mails to get the pilots fired up. Of course when I bring this up I get the "But you're not at a regional anymore" argument. Some guys refuse to see there actually ARE things between a regional and a major when it comes to contracts that are the same. Most of those guys are ex-military or haven't been at a regional in so long they can't even remember what it was like anymore.

I'm with PhilosopherPilot on most of this. As long as the screening and checking are good, I think it will work. Guys seem to be concerned about babysitting or getting stuck with someone with no experience. What they apparently don't realize is that's pretty much our hiring minimums already, so the possibility is there and always has been. As for the "indentured servitude" part, I don't know. The FAQ the company released said the person would be free to leave during the program and even accept employment elsewhere. Reading between the lines, it seems like there is some instructing time along with possibly some regional-ish time involved in the program as well. If that's the case, that's more or less the same route I took just with fewer hours. Seems like the program is still in the planning stages anyway, so I'm willing to wait before I get pitchforks and torches. I'm sure ALPA will have another response when more details come out, or whenever their done warning us about the alcohol content in mouthwash.....
 
So, I wonder if this will be like the ab initio programs from some of the European airlines, where you pretty much have to be a HarvardYale 5.0 junior princeling to stand a chance at being accepted? And I wonder, if this ab initio idea catches on in a more widespread way over here, how it would affect the chances of anyone else to have a shot at making it into the airlines that employ it? These aren't rhetorical questions, by the way. I'm genuinely curious. Obviously, I'm a relatively informed industry outsider rather than being an insider, so please feel free to shoot down this stuff if it's all totally wrongheaded.
 
@Ruck
I'm not sure exactly how they plan to select these individuals, but the details we got does mention that college isn't even required. So i'm really not sure if GPA will come into play. (Although it's possible it may be needed to be competitive so who knows)

Something else to note... JetBlue is starting a seperate education program which will allow crewmembers to finish up a degree via online classes for a discounted price. This program isn't related to the new gateway program, but I thought since it's a good program that it's worth mentioning.
 
On the bright, I think that this could be a great program if it catered to training up some of its employees to be pilots , such as line guys, gate agents, and flight attendants. You can't really call it skipping the line if you're already in the family!
 
Snuggle said:
I'm not sure exactly how they plan to select these individuals, but the details we got does mention that college isn't even required.
Click to expand...
That's enough to show that it's not going to be like the programs I mentioned, I think. We shall see. (Not necessarily personally interested, by the way; I have college already, and am probably a touch too old for such a program. But, still.)
 
Mike Wise said:
I do not think it is fair to judge a cadet's performance or predict their failure, when the pilots of AF447 (to the best of my knowledge) had 19,000 hours of flight experience logged combined and yet still failed at maintaining control of the aircraft.
Click to expand...

To be fair, most of that experience was in the back taking the first break.
 
If I did not attend riddle, went to work for CapeAir or XJET, would it be difficult getting into JBLU?

Trying to see the logic in these pipeline/gateway university programs in terms of recruiting pilots effectively. Most College students change their mind where they want to work every week.

Why not open doors for all pilots at CAPE AIR and EXPRESS JET?????? If your goal is really to create a set flow of pilots for future hiring need, then EMBRY-Riddle/UND grads only gateway sounds like College Recruiting fluff to benefit Riddle & not solve a looming pilot shortage.
 
Last edited:
As expected..

Fellow Pilots:

As you know, many paths are available to those wishing to become an airline pilot in the United States. Each of you spent years in the military, regional airlines, cargo, or corporate flying in order to build the flight experiences necessary to be a safe and professional aviator. It takes years of flying in all types of weather and in all situations to make one competitive enough to become a JetBlue pilot.

More than 14,000 ALPA pilots at regional airlines with several thousand hours of 121 experience are qualified and ready to join the ranks of JetBlue. The issue of hiring and retaining qualified JetBlue pilots comes at the price of a quality collective bargaining agreement—not at the prospect of hiring non-aviators and hoping that their simulator time and flight training in a blue-sky world prepares them for shooting an ILS to minimums during a winter storm.

Please don’t let our profession down or lower our standards for the promise of a raffle ticket by participating in JetBlue surveys which seek to gather data to model the typical JetBlue pilot. JetBlue’s attempt to create an ab initio program is not an effective way to secure qualified aviators, and we are concerned that the program is an attempt to deal with an increasingly competitive market for pilots without dealing with the need to improve rates of pay, rules, and working conditions.

The best way to attract and retain the best pilots is with a great CBA. One of the greatest assets our negotiators have at the table is the professionalism and experience of our pilot group. With that kind of wealth of skill and capability, we can negotiate a contract that will enhance JetBlue as a destination airline. In this fashion, we can recruit and maintain the finest aviators who come with seasoned proficiency and safety.

For these reasons, we ask you not to participate in Gateway 7 program surveys.

In unity, Captain Jim Bigham Captain Ed Lachendro Captain Wes Clapper MEC Chairman MEC Vice Chairman MEC SecretaryTreasurer
Click to expand...
 
Surprised that Jim went that route. Whether you agree or disagree with the program, burning capital on something like this when you're trying to reach a CBA is poor strategy, in my view.
 
kellwolf said:
ALPA can get spun up about this all they want, but at the end of the day the union doesn't set hiring policy. Believe me, we went through all that at Pinnacle with the whole JetU thing. ALPA would talk about supply and demand along with the fact we were in contract negotiations, and the company would say "Sorry, you don't get to say who we hire and don't." Unless there's a section in the contract or a LOA about it, ALPA doesn't have a lot of say in the matter other than sending off e-mails to get the pilots fired up. Of course when I bring this up I get the "But you're not at a regional anymore" argument. Some guys refuse to see there actually ARE things between a regional and a major when it comes to contracts that are the same. Most of those guys are ex-military or haven't been at a regional in so long they can't even remember what it was like anymore.

I'm with PhilosopherPilot on most of this. As long as the screening and checking are good, I think it will work. Guys seem to be concerned about babysitting or getting stuck with someone with no experience. What they apparently don't realize is that's pretty much our hiring minimums already, so the possibility is there and always has been. As for the "indentured servitude" part, I don't know. The FAQ the company released said the person would be free to leave during the program and even accept employment elsewhere. Reading between the lines, it seems like there is some instructing time along with possibly some regional-ish time involved in the program as well. If that's the case, that's more or less the same route I took just with fewer hours. Seems like the program is still in the planning stages anyway, so I'm willing to wait before I get pitchforks and torches. I'm sure ALPA will have another response when more details come out, or whenever their done warning us about the alcohol content in mouthwash.....
Click to expand...

JetU? Or did you mean Gulfstream? JetU only put through maybe 60-80ish guys at Pinnacle (who actually passed everything and made it to the line) before it all fell apart.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Surprised that Jim went that route. Whether you agree or disagree with the program, burning capital on something like this when you're trying to reach a CBA is poor strategy, in my view.
Click to expand...

How does this evenly remotely use capital? Unless there was some talk at the table that pilot participation would buy something specific in the upcoming CBA you'd be hard pressed (as would the NMB) to associate the two.
 
Mike Wise said:
Preach.

As a side note, since we've referenced AF447 before, I would be interested in studying the difference in performance, competency and failure levels of pilots from Ab-Initio progams VS conventional flight training programs. I do not think it is fair to judge a cadet's performance or predict their failure, when the pilots of AF447 (to the best of my knowledge) had 19,000 hours of flight experience logged combined and yet still failed at maintaining control of the aircraft.
Click to expand...

The CA on that flight mentally was out. I read how he only got "a couple" (2-3) hrs of sleep in the 24 hrs prior to the crash. And that the entire day, he spent out in the city with his lady friend (who was an opera singer and also going back to Paris in the back of his plane), and he did not get any rest/sleep before the flight after this long day spent in the city. He was dead tired and fatigued.

The relief pilot Robert had ~6,500 but he was a management pilot who flew literally only once every 90 days to keep landing currency. He was on this trip, and did the landing from Paris to Rio. He was an ab-initio pilot, and before going to management, his 6,500 hrs were mostly in the Airbus which means for any 1 hr of fligh time, only ~1 minute was actually hand-flown.

Co pilot Bonin had 2,900ish hours, almost all Airbus, and more than half that on the A330 fleet. Which means on a 10 hr flight, he flies for maybe 5 minutes total. Zero flight experience.

For this crew, the hours didn't mean much. Once you put these 3 together, under the circumstances they were paired as mentioned above, disaster was inevitable as soon as the pitot tubes froze. These two FOs weren't going to hand fly an airliner successfully once the pitots froze.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
JetU? Or did you mean Gulfstream? JetU only put through maybe 60-80ish guys at Pinnacle (who actually passed everything and made it to the line) before it all fell apart.
Click to expand...

I was talking about ALPA trying to stop the whole "hiring cheap labor" thing. The aptitude of the JetU grads is a whole 'nother thread.
 
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