JetBlue Announces an Ab Initio Program

[wheelsup]

MAPD worked when they could go from a Barron to a 1900 at 250 hours and then after a year or so and around 1000 TT could move up to the right seat of an RJ (which I think was an excellent idea).

However, now that 1900 FO must have 1500 TT before starting. Flying 6 hours a day 5 days a week, that's 10 months of time building flights before they can start work.

Lots of guys went into the RJ straight out of school. In fact the Dash was the hardest training program out there, I don't think anyone went to that. The 1900 was a small operator in comparison.

 

[wheelsup]

I think MAPD, was only a year though. Right, not four years? And MAPD IMO was more akin to Comair/Delta Academy. And had a more large flight school vibe, than MPL program.

It was roughly a 20 month program IIRC, for the quick ones. Around $50k back then for everything. It was like Comair Academy except it actually delivered what it promised and didn't fleece students. If you couldn't complete a course on time you were asked to leave.

 

[z987k]

They still don't say how they get the greenhorns to 1500hrs. Burn holes in the sky at FlightSafety Academy with a bunch of foreign students? Don't they already have some sort of pseudo-flow agreement with Cape Air?
Edit: I wonder if it is with 9K. Get the kids their commercials and plop em in the right seat of a 402 until they get an ATP. Would help with Cape's staffing issues too

It wouldn't help Cape air at all. They fly single pilot and need 1500 hour ATPs to fly their airplanes. The only reason they do SICs is to get them time so they can sit in the left seat. If Jetblue took them all right at 1500 that would hurt Cape air as there would be no reason to pay for someone to take up weight that could be better used to bring another passenger or someone's bag.

 

[bp]

I guess they could put them on freight runs once they hit 135 mins? Or make them stay for several hundred hours as PIC once they get their ATP.
Maybe they are just going to burn holes in the sky.

 

[milleR]

It wouldn't help Cape air at all. They fly single pilot and need 1500 hour ATPs to fly their airplanes. The only reason they do SICs is to get them time so they can sit in the left seat. If Jetblue took them all right at 1500 that would hurt Cape air as there would be no reason to pay for someone to take up weight that could be better used to bring another passenger or someone's bag.

It's been a while, but IIRC the 9K-B6 Gateway program required pilots to spend at least a year in the left seat at Cape before going to Jetblue.

Ultimately, they can make the rules whatever they want, so long as the meet or exceed the respective FAA flight time requirements.

 

[xdashdriver]

Lots of guys went into the RJ straight out of school. In fact the Dash was the hardest training program out there, I don't think anyone went to that. The 1900 was a small operator in comparison.

I had quite a few MAPD grads come through the Dash training program, and flew with several more who were hired before me. Most of them did well during training and flew the line well too. Better than some of the ones who came through with 1500 hours and lots of bad habits to overcome.

 

[Soul Brotha']

Not going over well with the JB pilots here.

 

[Maximilian_Jenius]

Not going over well with the JB pilots here.

Why not?

 

[PhilosopherPilot]

Not going over well with the JB pilots here.

I think people are being short-sighted if they are upset. Setting the program up can provide a pipeline if the pilot supply gets tight. If it doesn't get tight, they can stop using "gateway 7." It's better to be prepared unnecessarily than to do nothing and suffer competitively later on.

As long as the screening process and training is good, the quality will be good, so I don't see much of a safety threat. If the program has quality issues, then it should be fixed or shut down. It's too early to tell if that's a problem now. Basically, until we see what risks exist and how the program is constructed, we cannot determine if there's a safety threat. As long as the risks are mitigated, there's no problem. Plus, time and time again it has been proven that hours do not equal quality.

I think most people's issue with it center around people not "paying their dues" or similar silly arguments. Jealousy is a stinky cologne.

 

[BEEF SUPREME]

Why not?

Pro pilots don't get paid enough to be babysitters.

 

[Snuggle]

@PhilosopherPilot
I don't think guys are jealous. I really don't see that as a concern. At least I don't care, and i'm always happy to hear guys who get here sooner then later. What I do see is a concern that we may hire guys who lack real world experience for this job. The simulator cant teach you everything. Like you said though, I will have to see what the details are until I can comment further. I really don't know enough to comment much more then that. So until then... Back to /r/aww

 

[Soul Brotha']

I think people are being short-sighted if they are upset. Setting the program up can provide a pipeline if the pilot supply gets tight. If it doesn't get tight, they can stop using "gateway 7." It's better to be prepared unnecessarily than to do nothing and suffer competitively later on.

As long as the screening process and training is good, the quality will be good, so I don't see much of a safety threat. If the program has quality issues, then it should be fixed or shut down. It's too early to tell if that's a problem now. Basically, until we see what risks exist and how the program is constructed, we cannot determine if there's a safety threat. As long as the risks are mitigated, there's no problem. Plus, time and time again it has been proven that hours do not equal quality.

I think most people's issue with it center around people not "paying their dues" or similar silly arguments. Jealousy is a stinky cologne.

Jealousy is not what I'm getting from the pilot group. It's why are we here? Some mentioned that JB is thinking way ahead of the curve. No, it's about pay and bennies. There are none to maybe 1-2 pilots leaving the Big 3 to go to JB but we have had over 160 leave JB in reverse order in the past 2 years. B6ALPA has already said this Is not the way to go. Until we have a CBA there is really not much they can do about it. 121/91/135 experience is a big factor.

 

[PhilosopherPilot]

Jealousy is not what I'm getting from the pilot group. It's why are we here? Some mentioned that JB is thinking way ahead of the curve. No, it's about pay and bennies. There are none to maybe 1-2 pilots leaving the Big 3 to go to JB but we have had over 160 leave JB in reverse order in the past 2 years. B6ALPA has already said this Is not the way to go. Until we have a CBA there is really not much they can do about it. 121/91/135 experience is a big factor.

Of course they are leaving. We are a LCC, not a legacy. A CBA won't change that. We will get dramatic improvements, but we will still be a LCC. Some people will always leave us to go to legacies, even with big pay increases.

Personally, I like the fact that we aren't a legacy, but a lot of guys want to fly 777s to India. The moment JetBlue tries to become a legacy, JetBlue will begin to fail as a company.

So back on topic, I glad that we are attempting to address the pilot supply issue and think outside the box. That's what will keep us in business in 15 years. European carriers have had good success with similar programs. I'm willing to keep an open mind, and see how things go.

 

[Deleted member 27505]

I posted this in the 121 retirements thread but it probably deserves it's own..

JetBlue just announced an ab initio program. Thousands of qualified guys out there and they are gonna spend 4 years and millions of dollars on 24 people who don't know the difference between a landing light and runway light. It just seems to get better and better. FWIW ALPA is telling them to get bent.

JetBlue Pilots,

We are pleased to announce that JetBlue is developing an innovative talent pathway for those seeking to become pilots at JetBlue. In keeping with tradition, we’re calling it Gateway 7. This particular Gateway program will allow an applicant, if successful, to start with no flight time and become a JetBlue pilot after completing a rigorous training program. The first question that may come to mind is, “Why is JetBlue creating another Gateway program when we have thousands of qualified applicants every time we open our application window?”

Like our other Gateway programs, candidates build experience and training at their own expense and are not JetBlue Crewmembers until successfully completing their multi-year
Gateway program. Essentially, Gateway 7 is just our latest addition to JetBlue’s leading suite of recruitment programs for future JetBlue pilots. All other Gateways will continue, including our popular Gateway 2 (Bluedarts), Gateway 6 (University program) and the standard Gateway 1 (off the street). For more information on Gateways – please reference your FOM.

As you are all aware, in the United States, the traditional path to becoming a professional pilot is primarily based on an accumulation of hours approach and mainly focuses on single-pilot, single- or multi-engine operations in small general aviation aircraft. As professionally trained pilots ourselves, we know that it takes more than logging hours to be a successful pilot in today’s modern environment.

Since the cost and time of the traditional civilian pilot career path is becoming increasingly prohibitive for the average aspiring pilot, a new approach is needed. Gateway 7 will take a more competency-based approach and will optimize the training of prospective airline pilots by offering early exposure to multi-crew/multiengine operations, full motion simulator training, crew resource management, and threat and error management. We believe that by offering more ways to meet those diverse interests, strengths and backgrounds, we’ll be able to continue to find the best pilots in the industry long into the future.

Competency-based training programs are in use within the U.S. military and among leading international airlines. For those of you who have not experienced this first-hand, the U.S. military has very successfully used this type of highly structured method to train their pilots for decades. As such, we referenced guidance from the various military and ICAO training programs in the development of the Gateway 7 program.

Although still in the final phases of development, Gateway 7 will also be a highly-structured, high-quality training program. After completing the first several phases of training, the pilot trainee will accumulate 1,500 hours of flight time required for the issuance of an unrestricted ATP, in full compliance with existing FAR’s. Once the pilot candidate successfully completes the Gateway program and is selected to be a JetBlue pilot, s/he will be hired and complete the JetBlue qualification program, which will include a modified and extended version of IOE. Multiple stage checks and end-of-course tests ensure the pilot trainee’s progression according to the Practical Test Standards requirements of the FAA. We believe that our oversight of the entire training continuum and the candidates' early exposure to multi-engine/multi-crew operations will become a leading training option for pilots interested in Part 121 operations at JetBlue.

The Gateway 7 training program will be demanding. Therefore, we need to ensure trainees have a high probability of success. To support this, we are putting a rigorous Gateway 7 application process into place. Candidate screening will be a critical component of this process, just as it is for military pilot candidates before they are selected for flight school. Our goal is to ensure that our Gateway 7 selection assessments, currently in development, will help us choose well-qualified candidates who have the character traits and aptitude that ideally suit them for a career as pilots at JetBlue. The first stage of this process is data accumulation. Our talent department is working with a third-party business partner to help develop the multi-stage, rigorous selection process.

To help us validate the screening assessment we are developing, we are seeking assistance from current JetBlue pilots. Look for a follow up email in the coming days with more details regarding the assessment and how you can play an integral part in shaping this important aspect of the program – the process by which we will select candidates for Gateway 7.

In closing, Gateway 7 will officially launch in the coming weeks and we will announce the selection process and timeline later this year. Based on our training capacity, we are planning to begin with about 24 pilot trainees in the spring 2016 inaugural class. As a result, the program’s first graduating class of First Officers is projected to be ready to join the line in 2020, approximately four years after starting the program.

Stay tuned for more details on Gateway 7.

Who's chief of instruction? I want to be him. Else, an instructor.

Interesting. I would have expected the first one of these to come from a legacy carrier trying to fill their feeder carriers. Surprised that JetBlue is the first to give it a try when they shouldn't be having any problem filling classes with lots of experienced guys.

'Cause they're schmaaart!! ... and maybe 'cause they've got some old school Navy guys on board.

I'm sure the legacies will start to do something like this, but they will probably wait until the last minute and be behind the curve as usual.

I was trying to convince the legacies to do this 4 years ago. It'll happen, I think, but like you said, not for a while.

Mesa did this with MAPD. I will say the guys whom successfully finished were sharp. Great pilots and hard workers. If JetBlue runs a similar program I'm sure the guys they get will be just as good.

Stings for all the rest of us who slummed it for the better part of a decade instructing + flying for peanuts at a regional but that's life.

Mesa, sir, is no Jet Blue.

Pro pilots don't get paid enough to be babysitters.

Bite me. If you don't teach, you're no kind of Captain.

 

[KLB]

Back when I was at AMF....I would have loved to have gone to a place like jetBlue!
I had over 5000hrs total time, close to 4000hrs TPIC, and two types. I had been to a few job fairs where I was told that they had no interest in me without jet time and 121 time. I think that jB(like many carriers) are severely overlooking an untapped sect of the industry to recruit from... Allegient has picked up on it, but...well it's Allegient!

 

[BEEF SUPREME]

Who's chief of instruction? I want to be him. Else, an instructor.


'Cause they're schmaaart!! ... and maybe 'cause they've got some old school Navy guys on board.


I was trying to convince the legacies to do this 4 years ago. It'll happen, I think, but like you said, not for a while.


Mesa, sir, is no Jet Blue.


Bite me. If you don't teach, you're no kind of Captain.

Not what I am saying at all. Teaching an ab initio pilot with extremely low time, unknown quality of training, in a passenger carrying wide body, in extremely complex airspace isn't the same thing as teaching a copilot that has nearly the same amount of experience. Plus or minus a few years. I love teaching but there are appropriate experience levels and settings for those experience levels. An airbus isn't one of them.

 

[Deleted member 27505]

Not what I am saying at all. Teaching an ab initio pilot with extremely low time, unknown quality of training, in a passenger carrying wide body, in extremely complex airspace isn't the same thing as teaching a copilot that has nearly the same amount of experience. Plus or minus a few years. I love teaching but there are appropriate experience levels and settings for those experience levels. An airbus isn't one of them.

An airbus?? Lol. @Seggy, what's the checklist for that again. Vr, Positive, Gear Up, Autopilot Engaged, Newspaper Open?? Really??

I love to take ab initio, (training known... none), and teach them how to control aircraft. That's a dream job.

 

[BEEF SUPREME]

An airbus?? Lol. @Seggy, what's the checklist for that again. Vr, Positive, Gear Up, Autopilot Engaged, Newspaper Open?? Really??

AF447 - autopilot disengage no primary flight displays, so most definitely yes. How many PAX do we need to kill with ab initio students at the controls to prove that this is a bad idea?

 

[Deleted member 27505]

AF447 - autopilot disengage no primary flight displays, so most definitely yes. How many PAX do we need to kill with ab initio students at the controls to prove that this is a bad idea?

Well, see, they're not going into the machines that go "Ping" until they have the requisite experience. But when they do, they're going to do things like not stall an airplane just 'cause they lose pitot tube heat... they're gonna rock.

 

[BEEF SUPREME]

Well, see, they're not going into the machines that go "Ping" until they have the requisite experience. But when they do, they're going to do things like not stall an airplane just 'cause they lose pitot tube heat... they're gonna rock.

Seems as if you are emotionally invested in this program?