This is something that we're having a paradigm shift at SouthernJets and sparked a revolution of sorts.
It's not about turning "no" votes to "yes" through coercion, it's about producing an end-product with cash and prizes that people can get behind.
The "what's your solution?", "you don't get it" sent (and is sending) a lot of people to the guillotine. But then they go "coo coo for cocoapuffs" send out a bunch of "Jerry McGwire"-like emails full of pithy anger and ad hominem and head back to the line.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
We'll see how well the "revolution" goes. I suspect that the new group will just get sent to the guillotine like the last group.
Seggy
Well-Known Member
Now wait a second. It is quite fair and reasonable to ask the question to the members, in a union, 'what can be done to fix the problem'?
I agree, it is NOT about twisting arms from a no vote to a yes vote. It is about delivering a product the pilots wants. I am shedding no tears about those being recalled or resigning at your place. However, to ask 'what can be done' is quite fair. You already answer the questions of 'what can be done' with the contract surveys filled out leading up to a contract talk, the polls taken, and the interaction you have with your reps. Yes, if the reps don't follow this guidance, which some reps didn't do at Delta, get rid of them.
Furthermore, the FFDC carriers have a completely different model than you are under from a business stand point. For a Mesa Pilot to say 'we want more money' is a fair want. But how do they get it? Should Mesa ask American for more money in the contract? Or what about Untied? Is it fair for United to pay a Mesa pilot who solely flies for American more money? Or fair for American to pay Mesa more money for a pilot who only flies for United? How do you negotiate that money increase with the mainline partners? We ran into this situation at Pinnacle. Delta wasn't willing to pay Pinnacle more and it drove them to bankruptcy. So how is that fixed? Does United pay if Delta isn't willing to?
So, just because I asked doesn't mean I think a Mesa pilot should vote one way or another. Asking for more money is great. However, it is easier said than done.
Folks need to bring to the table tangible ideas to deliver solutions to the problems. Or else we are screwed.
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USMCmech
Well-Known Member
JO has publicly said that he doesn't need to offer any raises as long as he is filling new hire classes, which is true. However, recruiting enough qualified pilots is rapidly becoming impossible. Mesa has bid on AA and UA flying based on the assumption that their labor costs will be X dollars. What happens when they can't fill cockpit seats for less than that amount? Mesa will be forced to go back to AA and UA and renegotiate those FFD contracts. This is already happening at Republic.
Honestly, anyone who tells you they know exactly how this is going to turn out over the next 10 years is either an idiot or deluding themselves. Some markets will lose their airline service completely, some will see 4 RJ flights per day turn into 3 E190 mainline flights a day, some will lose their jet service and return to the turboprop days.
Having said all that, I think its safe to say that the days of flying large RJs for 1900 pay rates will not last much longer.
Seggy
Well-Known Member
I don't think that (RAH renegotiating the contracts) is happening at all actually. I am willing to bet, RAH will be bankrupt within a month, and the courts will be handling the contracts. What is not to say that AA or UA can go to Mesa and say, "well Skywest, is parking 50 seaters, they have plenty of pilots, let us put the planes there? "
I sure hope so.
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pete2800
'Member?
I think this is exactly what's going to happen.
But why is it that SkyWest would have plenty of pilots, while Mesa doesn't? It's the regional airlines that offer the best compensation package and quality of life benefits that will survive the first round...
Seggy
Well-Known Member
USMCmech
Well-Known Member
RAH is already failing to perform on the current contracts due to lack of crew (which is partially due to pay).
The old paradigm that another regional can just find plenty of pilots simply is not true anymore. Skywest is currently reasonably well staffed, only because they are one of the best paying regionals, while Mesa has only been able to fill classes with the promise of a quick upgrade (which isn't true anymore). However, even those conditions will only last so long with the trickle of new pilots entering the industry. Mesa has been recruiting quite a few guys in their 50s who are basically doing this as a hobby in their retirement.
Seggy
Well-Known Member
Which leads me to believe that there will be more consolidation with more FFDCs.
pete2800
'Member?
The downside is that Skywest has upgrades almost as long as Delta....
Won't matter when they're getting Mesa's airplanes...
The place I'm at was over 12 years when I was hired. I got the call at 3 yrs 8 months.
Only if you're willing to consider the answer and not do the "reframe". As in:
"What do you think of the TA sick leave language?"
"it's terrible because of X…Y….Z…."
"Well, you know, people are abusing it"
Hmm, ok.
You know exactly what went down at my shop. They spent an inordinate amount of time patting one another on the back about the mediocre cheese plate they assembled, but everyone ordered a cheeseburger with fries.
"What do you need in order to accept the cheese plate?" is an inappropriate answer and will continue to be so.
Either your trolling me or you've forgotten about the conversations we've had about our previous administration.
F
Flying Saluki
Guest
It occurs to me that there may be an opportunity for something more meaningful than simply an increase in pay rates. It's an opportunity for a paradigm shift; and that is to start making experience count for something. If, say, a 5-year pilot at ABC airlines could switch to XYZ airlines and start at year 5, that benefits everybody. The pilot is no longer handcuffed to his regional. It removes the economic incentive to shift flying from this regional to that regional. It provides a recruiting tool.
It just seems to me that this might be a better use of the current market conditions than simply trying to negotiate for higher pay. Pay rate gains made in one contract can be lost in the next. But a paradigm shift tends to be a little longer lasting.
Something to think about, anyway.
It just seems to me that this might be a better use of the current market conditions than simply trying to negotiate for higher pay. Pay rate gains made in one contract can be lost in the next. But a paradigm shift tends to be a little longer lasting.
Something to think about, anyway.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
And how do you accomplish that, exactly?
F
Flying Saluki
Guest
The same way you accomplish anything else. Negotiate for it. It's just a change of priorities.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
No, not really. Negotiating within a single carrier is a lot different than negotiating for something across carriers.
Autothrust Blue
“If you jump on my shift, that’s just rude, man.”
"You don't get it" is something that I personally am tired of being told at my employer as well.
Of course, my answer of "well, use smaller words/speak more slowly" probably doesn't invite a fun response either.
Seggy
Well-Known Member
I would have been a NO vote based on the sick leave language and you know that.
Yep!
Completely agree
Agreed!
I am not trolling at all.
I am asking, 'How do you get the cheeseburger and fries in front of you?' Folks need to kill the cow, pick the potatoes, fry the potatoes, get the beef cooked, pick the lettuce, milk the cows for the cheese, make the cheese, bake the bun, etc.
Huge difference
Seggy
Well-Known Member
Ok.
No one is telling anyone in this thread 'folks don't get it'. Folks are asking other folks how to fix it.
Glad you are running too try to fix it.
Here's an angle that no one has probably elucidated from an outsiders perspective. You can't both volunteer to do something in a union, then turn around and scream about "Well, what's YOUR plan?"
Whenever I've heard that, it's indicative of a person who got involved for their own benefit, not the selfless benefit and advancement of the people they represent. You know the type, like the guy that elbowed his way onto the hotel committee in order to approve and reapprove a substandard hotel in a particular location because he had a side hustle going on. Complaints would "disappear" and "Well, you don't understand the alternatives".
Not this committee, but the guillotine just brained another person today!