Airshows shouldn't exist

Seggy said:
Ok, so now, you want to talk about using your head? Then why are you opposed to 3rd class medicals for general aviation pilots? Do you really think it will be smart to even try to pass a regulation like that? Or just allowing a knee jerk reaction (as AOPA wants it) to get in the way of common sense.
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Well since you stopped discussing the current thread and the data I've provided. I'll humor you.

I'm not sure what you mean by AOPA's knee jerk reaction. It wasn't like a single event happened and they demanded repeal. That's knee jerk. But ok. I support it because based on things that are dangerous to our society. It is a fraction of a percent of what could even be possible when compared to things like driving or even eating. It will allow a few people to operate an airplane similar in size, speed and passenger carrying ability that the motor vehicle laws currently allow them to operate. The sport pilot rules have laid this foundation in a logical manner. Again, not knee jerk.
 
PositionAndHold said:
Well since you stopped discussing the current thread and the data I've provided. I'll humor you.
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I don't necessarily buy your data as an end all be all to this discussion. If there was a 2% chance of going to a football game and seeing someone die over the course of the year on the field, the rules of football would need to be drastically changed as that would be to much.

I'm not sure what you mean by AOPA's knee jerk reaction. It wasn't like a single event happened and they demanded repeal. That's knee jerk. But ok. I support it because based on things that are dangerous to our society. It is a fraction of a percent of what could even be possible when compared to things like driving or even eating. It will allow a few people to operate an airplane similar in size, speed and passenger carrying ability that the motor vehicle laws currently allow them to operate. The sport pilot rules have laid this foundation in a logical manner. Again, not knee jerk.
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You do realize that there are differences between flying an airplane and driving a car? Differences that need to be looked at enough that a medical is necessary to properly certify flight? It is knee jerk from the way they proposed the change in the regulation to the actual thought processes they are using to try to argue for the change. I would love for you to be at a dinner party with a bunch of doctors and try to explain to them on why changing the rule is safer than we have it now.

Anyway, back to the airshows. Yes, banning them, a tad harsh. But, maybe make the performances more of flybys instead private folks trying to play Blue Angels.
 
Seggy said:
@mikecweb post 32.
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@MikeD hated on one of the best and most respected pilots in the airshow circuit. That post should be ignored the same way as if I made a post about F-117 maneuvers.

Only kind of picking on you a little bit @MikeD, but I assure you that she knows what she's doing. My opinion is based on everyone elses opinion on her of course... :) Which is highly regarded, their opinion, not mine. Just forwarding.

Skip Stewart is going to hit something VERY hard sooner than anyone touring right now. More worthy of criticism from the demontration community IMO. The same argument could be said that he knows what he's doing though I suppose. I suspect he may be an actual lunatic though! haha
 
UAL747400 said:
@MikeD hated on one of the best and most respected pilots in the airshow circuit. That post should be ignored the same way as if I made a post about F-117 maneuvers.

Only kind of picking on you a little bit @MikeD, but I assure you that she knows what she's doing. My opinion is based on everyone elses opinion on her of course... :) Which is highly regarded, their opinion, not mine. Just forwarding.

Skip Stewart is going to hit something VERY hard sooner than anyone touring right now. More worthy of criticism from the demontration community IMO. The same argument could be said that he knows what he's doing though I suppose. I suspect he may be an actual lunatic though! haha
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Who did I hate on? I posted a quote from another pilot friend that I and others were discussing this incident with.
 
You commented on a recent in-cockpit airshow video. The throttle was never touched the entire time. The only recent video I can think of was Svetlana Kapanina.

If that wasn't what you were referring to, nevermind.
 
UAL747400 said:
You commented on a recent in-cockpit airshow video. The throttle was never touched the entire time. The only recent video I can think of was Svetlana Kapanina.

If that wasn't what you were referring to, nevermind.
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Did you read my post? I was quoting a pilot acquaintance, who was part of a group of us discussing this accident. I placed his quoted thoughts as a quote in my post, in order generate discussion here. Re-read that post on the previous page, I make it clear I'm quoting someone else.

Sheesh people.....read stuff.
 
Seggy said:
I don't necessarily buy your data as an end all be all to this discussion. If there was a 2% chance of going to a football game and seeing someone die over the course of the year on the field, the rules of football would need to be drastically changed as that would be to much.



You do realize that there are differences between flying an airplane and driving a car? Differences that need to be looked at enough that a medical is necessary to properly certify flight? It is knee jerk from the way they proposed the change in the regulation to the actual thought processes they are using to try to argue for the change. I would love for you to be at a dinner party with a bunch of doctors and try to explain to them on why changing the rule is safer than we have it now.

Anyway, back to the airshows. Yes, banning them, a tad harsh. But, maybe make the performances more of flybys instead private folks trying to play Blue Angels.
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Of course there are differences. However the difference in risk to the public is statistically less in an airplane compared to a car. An average SUV weighs roughly 6k pounds. You could be 80 years old, load up 6-8 of your great grandkids, go flying down the road at 80 (in some states) and be perfectly legal. That same person can't get into a 2,500 pound C172 and fly only three of his grandkids around?

We keep hearing the third class is "such a joke", "if you can't pass it you're dead". The problem is the FAA has some pretty archaic rules when it comes to certain conditions. And if you ever get a medical denied, whether its first or third class, you can never operate under the sport pilot rules. So people are forced to either make the decision to disclose their issue and hope the FAA never changes thier view on a specific condition or not disclose.

We self certify our medical fitness every time we fly, whether we have a first or third class medical. One visit every 2-5 years to get our blood pressure and color vision checked for the millionth time doesn't it make us any safer. We make us safer by making a decision to fly or not to fly every time we have to. Heck, the one day a year I know I'm not going to fly is the one day I get my medical. When you call in sick to work do you go see your AME and let him make that decision first? Or do you call in sick and consult with one after the fact?
 
MikeD said:
I'll throw this out there for general consumption. This is an excerpt from a post by a pilot friend of mine as we and others were discussing this accident.



"Aerobatics used to be beautiful to watch. It was the human hand using a machine in a skilled manner. Most of the air show pilots made livings in airplanes doing jobs like crop dusting (Frank Price), test pilots (Bob Hoover), combination of both (Harold Krier).

They didn't walk around in costumes like NASCAR drivers, require explosions and flames from the ground, do maneuvers that made you think they were in personal peril. Watching them was simply observing the joy of skill in flying.

Like everything in our society that isn't enough. It's got to be amped up to the extreme. Bombed, explosions, over the top personalities, hard edged maneuvers which are no longer beauty to watch.

I recently watched a female Russian aerobatic pilot in a cockpit video and for aviation I thought it was shameful. Her hand was not on the throttle, every maneuver was simply pushing the stick as hard as she could, the airplane was overpowered to accomplish this, and it simply never mattered because the power was never changed.

Put her in a sailplane or clip winged Cub and her skill set won't hold up.

I've also been watching a series of videos of a fellow pilot I know attempting to kill himself. It's just a matter of time, but specifically the above video is a jet in England. The military jets in civilian hands are the earliest generation. They were underpowered and during their era they were not flown doing low altitude loops.

But our era expects it, even though the results are tested, proven and known to be disastrous. It is a shame and here is my angst.

This crash to the non aviation people represents all aviation. Not someone flying a marginal performance machine with no safety margin. Your ego and showmanship and resulting crash ends in the noose being tightened on everyone else.

I extend my point out to all the air show "performers" to reel it in and put safety above all. Showcase beautiful flying, not death defying stunts. This loop could have been performed at a safe altitude with safe results and everyone would have been just as thrilled."
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The bolded part. That was quoted, but your friend is wrong I bet and since you quoted it, I'm thinking you agree.

Her Aerobatics are beautiful to watch. Some of the best in fact
 
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UAL747400 said:
The bolded part. That was quoted, but your friend is wrong I bet and since you quoted it, I'm thinking you agree.

Her Aerobatics are beautiful to watch. Some of the best in fact
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I quoted it because that was his conversation and wasn't my words to claim. And I posted it as a means of discussion, which I made clear in the first sentence. Im not interested one way or the other on whomever it is he's talking about. I don't even know her.

Sheesh people, read and comprehend.
 
I totally can't even...

The desire to hide from anything dangerous astounds me. On its very face you're deciding to shy away deep inside your comfort zone which at its very best leads to complacency. The muscle that pushes you to be amazed is the same one that pushes you to see what's over that next ridge, to see how much better you can be. Air shows are controlled danger which excites the heart and inspires the mind BECAUSE the margin of error is so narrow.

I know that I'm a pilot because of an air show. I know that my desire to be as good as those performers means I'll be better tomorrow.

It's time we stop letting the debate get pushed past full retard in the name of safety. Chances must be taken if we want real progress and while danger can be mitigated it can never be eliminated. The days of "for the children" need to end, it's time to shout down those who are making ludicrous demands in the name of safety. Stop negotiating with these terrorists.

My job as a dad is to let my son have enough room to scare the crap out of himself. He will learn what his boundaries and capabilities are and be secure in them, then and only then will he be able to make a truly safe decision. It's also my job to teach him that he should pity those who choose to exist and not live.
 
Eleven people who were not attending the air show are dead. They didn't make a choice to attend the show and accept the risk.

I don't care if you want to watch your silly aerobatics. Doesn't do anything for me, but if that's your thing, enjoy. But keep it the hell away from populated areas.
 
That article sounds like it was written by a 12 year old. If you go to every airshow in your local area you still have a much better chance of dying in a car accident on the way there. Innocent people who weren't involved in things die in traffic all the time but we don't ban driving.

Team "let's ban stuff" fires up the rage machine!
 
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