The next thing that could kill you

Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Disagree. No amounts of practice will prepare you for the real thing when that thing does quit and you're going down. Invariably, through the turn, with a hurt rate pumping and breathing rate increased, looking back towards the runway or otherwise eyes out, pilots have time and time again continued to tighten the bank and pull back, dropping airspeed and then entering a stall/spin. In a practice, you know it's coming, you're relaxed, know exactly when it will quit, when you'll turn, etc.
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That's why you have to be disciplined when performing it: Knowing and having the SA to recognize whether you are even in parameters to begin it; then having practiced it enough to be comfortable knowing how it will feel when you do perform it, and thus build the ability to counter as much of the adrenaline and fear that will invariably occur, and not let those cause you to make panic control inputs.

Cherokee_Cruiser said:
I can't accept that every case is a guy heads down in a gizmo. It's fair to say no one intentionally goes to hit another aircraft midair. In this case, a jet crew and a Cessna 172 failed to see each other in time to prevent a collision.

In the airline world, we had these issues with GA traffic. PSA at San Diego, Aeromexico at LAX Cerritos, many passengers died, and we finally said enough is enough, that at jet speeds we're too fast to reasonably pick up and react to traffic, and so we must have TCAS. Since then, airliner midairs have decreased tremendously.

Notable exception to the 2002 Uberlingen midair in which one Russian crew followed ATC and not his TCAS, ICAO then clarified to always follow TCAS first. And the Legacy/GOL midair in Brazil, the Legacy transponder was inadvertently off.
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I can't accept that either. Why? Because I don't know it to be the case. TCAS is a great tool, and it should supplement the eyeball like it does. ADS-B will be even better. But each midair is different in dynamics, and until its found out what the causal factors of this one were, it's jumping the gun to say "Aha! THIS would've prevented it!!"

A midair in a traffic pattern at a towered field, obviously has some very different dynamics than two random aircraft coming together in the middle of nowhere at 10,000 MSL in cruise flight.

We just don't know yet with this accident.
 
TCAS is primary for me. Sure I'm looking outside, but it's TCAS's ND display that shows me and I then pick it out visually (and sometimes I can't even see an airplane that TCAS is showing me, and it's not a false target, it is a Cessna that's indiscernible given the background). And I don't even call them in sight anymore.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
The FAA's "see and avoid" mantra :rolleyes:

I think we can all agree these midairs are happening because pilots aren't seeing the other airplane. Now we can continue blaming dead pilots each and every single time for "failure to see and avoid." Or.... we can say, you know what? It is entirely unrealistic to expect a pilot to be able to scan 360 degrees of sky around him, in time to pick up the unperceivable target, which once perceivable usually gives only a 5-15 second window to respond to avoid a midair.
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Woah, dude, you totally misconstrued my post.
Hitting the ground hard is almost the only thing that will kill you in an airplane (even hitting another aircraft is unlikely to kill you, it's hitting the ground afterward that usually does it) so do you best not to hit the ground hard. I was trying to be glib with a hint of truth and you took and ran a totally different direction. Truth be told I'm not even that worried about a midair, sure the idea is scary but if you look at it statistically you're way more likely to crash from any number of other causes than a midair.
 
BCTAv8r said:
As a student pilot, one of my greatest fears is an engine failure on takeoff, especially considering the limited options I would have for an off-field landing at my airport
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In a light GA plane that hardly ever gets 60 kts gs on takeoff an off-airport landing executed properly will likely be survivable. Sure the plane will be totaled but that I'm ok with.

One thing that helped me build confidence with engine out ops was getting a glider rating. Among other things it involved unexpected tow release at 200 ft AGL. Before that I wondered if I would do the right thing that close to the ground or yank it back and stall/spin.

My current top 3 fears list:
1. Having in-flight emergency (like engine out), doing everything right, but then hitting someone on the ground
2. A glider pilot ballooning on takeoff roll when I'm towing
3. Dynamic rollover
 
BCTAv8r said:
Flying out of Boca Raton, FL, the conflict I have is that although I am told to brief what I would do during an engine out landing on takeoff, in reality, if we were to have an engine out failure on takeoff, we would have almost no options on takeoff. I have a hard time thinking through something like that when the likely outcome is that I would die. How do you guys deal with something like that?
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You might not have any "good" options, but you should brief just that and still have a plan.

Briefings are important for two reasons.

One is that it makes you come up with a plan before you need it. It makes your decision making an "if...then" situation instead of scrambling to come up with a solution only when you are confronted with the problem. You might not like your best option, but because you briefed it ahead of time, you already know what you're going to do and you can focus on completing the maneuver successfully instead of decision making.

The second thing briefings do is get everyone on the same page. Everyone on board knows the plan for if you lose the engine after takeoff and everyone should know their role in the process. Again, it leads to less confusion.

A great example is the way most multi engine turbine operators plan engine failures on takeoff. For example, we know that below 80kts we will abort for any caution or warning as well as strange sounds, vibrations, etc. From 80kts to our takeoff decision speed (V1) we will only abort for engine failure, fire, or a belief that the aircraft won't fly when we haul back on the yoke. Beyond V1 we are going no matter what. This is simply the way it is done so that when you're at 85kts and receive a hydraulic 2 high temp message you already know exactly what you need to do instead of making a decision during the takeoff roll.
 
In the Phoenix practice area, there are so many aircraft, trying to do the same thing. Near Coolidge you could have people in the area on 4 different frequencies. Every instructor I taught with had a near miss story or two. Even with the best look out, there is so much going on in that area, I think you'll still have them. I'm surprised there haven't been more midairs around here.
 
BCTAv8r said:
How do you guys deal with something like that?
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My perspective is multi-faceted. My experience is gleaned from spending time in chaotic Air Traffic Control towers and radar rooms, to the battlefields of Iraq and Afghanistan, and most recently the skies of Alaska and over the forest fires of the western US. The one thing that I have had instilled into me is this; make your plan, and execute the plan. Always. While things come up that were unexpected or not accounted for, the basis remains the same. Make a plan first. When that goes south? I default to this; put the big things in first. If you've seen the jar of sand, gravel, pebbles, rocks, and glass of water demonstration, you know what I am talking about.

If not, here is the video.

At any rate, when things go sideways, do that thing that will save your life. Whatever that is, do that. Ultimately if I'm dead, I don't need to particularly worry about anyone else. Once beyond that, do whatever to save your buddies, crew, or others' lives. Beyond that, do whatever you can to save your gear, equipment, vehicles, or airplane. Then, beyond that, escape, evade, resist, or whatever next step needs to be made. Then, slow down, and assess the situation. Because I thrive in those environments, I know that the experience of time compression means that ish is about to get real. Time compression allows me just that fraction of a moment to plan my next step.

How do I deal with life or death situations? Plan my next step, put the big things in first, and stay calm. Ultimately, in these situations, it comes down to decision making. It's only between bad or worse. There are no "right" answers because any post-action analysis will reveal the things that could have been done better.
 
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GX said:
How do I deal with life or death situations? Plan my next step, put the big things in first, and stay calm. Ultimately, in these situations, it comes down to decision making. It's only between bad or worse. There are no "right" answers because any post-action analysis will reveal the things that could have been done better.
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And to add to this too, never freeze....always keep rolling the dice, until you have no more ability to. Because even a bad decision, is better than no decision at all. And any decision, just may turn out to be a good or satisfactory one, even if it didn't seem like it would.

But ever giving up or quitting? one's fate is usually then sealed.
 
MikeD said:
And to add to this too, never freeze....always keep rolling the dice, until you have no more ability to. Because even a bad decision, is better than no decision at all. And any decision, just may turn out to be a good or satisfactory one, even if it didn't seem like it would.

But ever giving up or quitting? one's fate is usually then sealed.
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OODA loop should apply to everything from day to day business to getting your ass out of the weeds.
 
Is anyone else concerned that some rogue drone is going to do some major damage someday soon? They're all over the news at an increasing rate...idiots flying them high in busy airspace. And those are just the fools who buy a cool new toy and don't have the sense not to fly them where the airliners fly...wouldn't surprise me if there's actually intent someday too.
 
melltimejr said:
Is anyone else concerned that some rogue drone is going to do some major damage someday soon? They're all over the news at an increasing rate...idiots flying them high in busy airspace. And those are just the fools who buy a cool new toy and don't have the sense not to fly them where the airliners fly...wouldn't surprise me if there's actually intent someday too.
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I could see one being sucked into an engine one day. Then they'll make a law against it.
 
Surviving is key. A huge benefit of flying a light single-engine aircraft is if you have a forced landing in a rough area, as long as you don't hit anything with the pointy end, USUALLY, you will survive. It isn't going to be pretty, but no engine failure is.

Don't hit anything with the pointy end. Let objects sheer off the wings and other stuff and bring you to a stop at a slower rate than slamming head on into something.

I do pattern at 1D2 in Canton Michigan sometimes. It's buried in the middle of the plymouth canton area and if you have an engine failure on take off, you're going to ruin someones morning commute. When taking off out of airports with no good options, I like to have an exact plan of where I will put it exactly, that way I can better execute my "this is gonna be rough" landing.
 
MikeD said:
And to add to this too, never freeze....always keep rolling the dice, until you have no more ability to. Because even a bad decision, is better than no decision at all. And any decision, just may turn out to be a good or satisfactory one, even if it didn't seem like it would.

But ever giving up or quitting? one's fate is usually then sealed.
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This is very true. In the ATC world, it's taught to "keep talking" when you go down the drain, lose the picture, or have an incident. This translated directly to the battlefield as a JTAC. When things got bad, let the other guys do the shooting as much as practical, I kept talking. The radio was my gun.

I know that you know this Mike, but for the sake of OP... In an airplane, staying in front of the airplane is the thing that will give you the time and space to create your plan. If you have an engine die on takeoff, you're going to have a moment to create a plan. Once you have the plan, be committed to it, and execute that plan. As I said, there will only be two choices, bad and worse. Pick the bad one. And do it to the best of your ability.
 
GX said:
This is very true. In the ATC world, it's taught to "keep talking" when you go down the drain, lose the picture, or have an incident. This translated directly to the battlefield as a JTAC. When things got bad, let the other guys do the shooting as much as practical, I kept talking. The radio was my gun.

I know that you know this Mike, but for the sake of OP... In an airplane, staying in front of the airplane is the thing that will give you the time and space to create your plan. If you have an engine die on takeoff, you're going to have a moment to create a plan. Once you have the plan, be committed to it, and execute that plan. As I said, there will only be two choices, bad and worse. Pick the bad one. And do it to the best of your ability.
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I always make an effort to play the plan game, especially when things are going right. What do I do now? Whats next? Where am I going? where do I want to be? How am I getting there? Especially in IFR, when I first started I would have tons of contingency plans at the ready for alts throughout the flight. While I still do, that slow lengthy planning makes your visualization in flight that much better and with more experience you can anticipate more and become quicker at planning, even on the fly. Even a runway change or closure at a busy airport can send your SA to hell but with the big picture in mind your focus just shifts on hitting the important parts first - flying the airplane, picturing it in the airspace, briefing the new runway plan, etc.

I recall a diversion where I could sense a freeze moment coming so I kept looking through the new avionics I was using till I caught up and found what I was looking for. I called ATC during that time and just talked - NXXX still on assigned heading I will let you know when I have an alternate in mind.
 
No matter how much you work at it, you'll always have the pilots like the idiot at GUC yesterday. He taxied out and took off (opposite direction from runway everyone else was using) in his new Cirrus without a single radio call; went right over the top of me as I moved into position for take off.

It's these pilots that I worry about.
 
TWP said:
Surviving is key. A huge benefit of flying a light single-engine aircraft is if you have a forced landing in a rough area, as long as you don't hit anything with the pointy end, USUALLY, you will survive. It isn't going to be pretty, but no engine failure is.

Don't hit anything with the pointy end. Let objects sheer off the wings and other stuff and bring you to a stop at a slower rate than slamming head on into something.

I do pattern at 1D2 in Canton Michigan sometimes. It's buried in the middle of the plymouth canton area and if you have an engine failure on take off, you're going to ruin someones morning commute. When taking off out of airports with no good options, I like to have an exact plan of where I will put it exactly, that way I can better execute my "this is gonna be rough" landing.
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I flew out of 1D2 as well back when it was Kitze Aviation there. I flew N4595T just a few months before it ended up like this:

http://www.avclaims.com/n4595t_photos.htm

The people survived so that was positive. Still a waste of a plane. I assume that this did Kitze in and they went out of business. Now, Solo Aviation from Ann Arbor (where I used to fly a lot in college) has taken over 1D2 and moved some planes there for rental. Do you own or rent at 1D2?
 
dustoff17 said:
No matter how much you work at it, you'll always have the pilots like the idiot at GUC yesterday. He taxied out and took off (opposite direction from runway everyone else was using) in his new Cirrus without a single radio call; went right over the top of me as I moved into position for take off.

It's these pilots that I worry about.
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True story or when some guy in his fancy pancy mooney decides to do right traffic when it's only left traffic and everyone else is doing left traffic, and you see this big airplane on your windscreen turning right to final as you are turning final too. Stay alert.
 
So in keeping with this theme, I've always wondered other's thoughts:

Engine failure on takeoff or in a congested, unforgiving area and only option is a busy highway or interstate system. Thinking small single engine, do you set it down best you can moving with traffic? Relative velocities moving same direction etc.. Hopefully it isn't gridlock at 5pm.
 
BaronPete said:
So in keeping with this theme, I've always wondered other's thoughts:

Engine failure on takeoff or in a congested, unforgiving area and only option is a busy highway or interstate system..
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If this is your only option, as you state here, do you have a choice then? Guess not. Make the best of it.
 
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