San Diego Crash?

[MikeD]

TIS is sporadic/hit miss. With altitudes as low as the Hudson river and the PHX choppers, you routinely hear the lady's "TIS not available" as you go below coverage altitude for where your aircraft is.

The PHX choppers are an exception because both pilots were flying and reporting what they were seeing which means much less room to look for another chopper. The Hudson river one was terrible, and I don't know if they proved that TIS indeed was working and showed them the yellow dot on their screen.

Which was indeed a problem in the PHX accident, that of both pilots being "pilot/reporters", ie- distracted with doing the live news reports while still being the only pilot onboard. The other crewman in both helos was a cameraman filming, so essentially, no one was looking outside for other traffic, all eyes were at the ground at the police situation going on.

A very specific set of dynamics indeed, but one where even a traffic awareness device such as TIS was no guarantee of protection, due to its own inherent sensor limitations, especially for rotary wing. And this was in addition to the fact that the two helicopters were talking to one another on helo common freq.

In the Hudson accident, it was known that TIS info was being received; it's now known what each pilot had displayed though.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Holy crap you can hear his death scream at 0:39

 

[MikeD]

TCAS typically goes to TA only below 1000 AGL. I like TCAS, let alone it's RA ability, just to see the traffic in diamond shapes, their position, and relative altitude. That is a part of my scan on every approach to every airport. And I zoom in to the lowest scale on the ND screen. I did say ADS-B mandated for both In and Out. Every aircraft near ADS grond station will see another aircraft on their screen, eliminated TIS gray areas when it's not available. The traffic screen should be part of the scan a pilot uses approaching an airport, and so yes, it could have saved them..

In an airport traffic pattern however, when congested and/or getting constant TAs, there's always the tendency for pilots to begin disregarding nuisance warnings that begin to frequently occur, especially in a phase of flight such as a traffic pattern, where it's visual flying. As opposed to cruise flight with minimal maneuvering, where a TCAS has the ability to be more accurate in being predictive of other traffic, and providing far more useful information.

[
Holy crap you can hear his death scream at 0:39

Yes. That was the edited tape. That scream went all the way to the ground in the unedited tape, after his AStar had all three main rotor blades separate from the collision. That's TV15 on the right of the photo, sans rotorblades, headed straight down. TV3 to the left has its tail boom separated from the collision and the rest of the airframe tore itself apart.

 

[PositionAndHold]

TCAS typically goes to TA only below 1000 AGL. I like TCAS, let alone it's RA ability, just to see the traffic in diamond shapes, their position, and relative altitude. That is a part of my scan on every approach to every airport. And I zoom in to the lowest scale on the ND screen. I did say ADS-B mandated for both In and Out. Every aircraft near ADS grond station will see another aircraft on their screen, eliminated TIS gray areas when it's not available. The traffic screen should be part of the scan a pilot uses approaching an airport, and so yes, it could have saved them.


We all said wait for the facts for Frederick and for the F16 midair in South Carolina. Both cases, the ATC told one aircraft about the other, so at least one already knew to look for it. The F16 was even given a heading, twice, if he didn't have it in sight. But pilots that think they can visually acquire and keep sight with VFR Cessnas when they fly high speed jets usually get in trouble fairly quickly. There's a reason I never call a GA aircraft in sight anymore in my airline job.

We can see other aircraft now on our TCAS. But the 6 mile range in our airplane doesn't cut the mustard for self separation of targets. That's why we all laugh when some dude goes "got em on the fish finder". ATC doesn't care. They need visual confirmation. What makes you think because some one can see a target on their ADS-B screen they won't keep trucking inbound on thier visual because "they got em on the fish finder"? Until TCAS/ADS-B has the resolution to self deconflict and the FAA grants us the ability to do so, either you have them visually or you remain on your IFR separated flight plan. So instead of people looking outside they'll be looking inside while inbound to the local class G. Until ADS-B provides deconfliction, it won't work the way you hope it does.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Ugh, just gut wrenching and heart breaking.

Is it true though, that none of these choppers were in the air until their scanners on the ground picked up a high speed pursuit, at which point they all launched?!!? What's all this for? Ratings? It got 4 dead here.

 

[MikeD]

Ugh, just gut wrenching and heart breaking.

Is it true though, that none of these choppers were in the air until their scanners on the ground picked up a high speed pursuit, at which point they all launched?!!? What's all this for? Ratings? It got 4 dead here.

Yes, but that's their job. News coverage. Generally, they're airborne during rush hour times for basic news for work travellers, as well as traffic reporting. At other times, they go airborne if something is deemed newsworthy, such as this police situation that happened at lunchtime. Both departed from their base in SDL, as they park nearly next to one another. And both were talking to one another on helo common, as well as talking to PHX tower.....although the tower pretty much can't do anything for them and was more a formality, they being in visual separation.

The TV10 helicopter, which was further distant from the two accident helicopters, witnessed the whole thing.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

We can see other aircraft now on our TCAS. But the 6 mile range in our airplane doesn't cut the mustard for self separation of targets. That's why we all laugh when some dude goes "got em on the fish finder". ATC doesn't care. They need visual confirmation. What makes you think because some one can see a target on their ADS-B screen they won't keep trucking inbound on thier visual because "they got em on the fish finder"? Until TCAS/ADS-B has the resolution to self deconflict and the FAA grants us the ability to do so, either you have them visually or you remain on your IFR separated flight plan. So instead of people looking outside they'll be looking inside while inbound to the local class G. Until ADS-B provides deconfliction, it won't work the way you hope it does.

What do you mean by deconfliction?

I use our lowest range on the ND and it works fine for my purposes. You still get the general picture of where the traffic is on approach. Eg, on approach to EWR 22L we commonly get certain helicopter traffic to the left of final course, and every time I see it first on the TCAs 10 mile ring, and then as we get closer I pick him up visually. Now, this isn't to say stop looking outside. But, an ADS-B traffic picture / TIS / TCAS picture should be a part of your scan.

Even 5 miles from the airport you can at least see a target in the air at the airport you're landing on. In this case, the jetliner's TCAS / TIS (if installed) should be able to show the Cessna within the airport's vicinity.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Yes, but that's their job. News coverage. Generally, they're airborne during rush hour times for basic news for work travellers, as well as traffic reporting. At other times, they go airborne if something is deemed newsworthy, such as this police situation that happened at lunchtime. Both departed from their base in SDL, as they park nearly next to one another. And both were talking to one another on helo common, as well as talking to PHX tower.....although the tower pretty much can't do anything for them and was more a formality, they being in visual separation.

The TV10 helicopter, which was further distant from the two accident helicopters, witnessed the whole thing.

Traffic jams are news to me. It's helpful to know where the jams are and which routes to take. Traffic accident info is good to know as well. But a high speed chase? Lets face it, this is filmed purely for entertainment value to the consumer. Because everyone tunes in to see a highspeed chase.

 

[MikeD]

We can see other aircraft now on our TCAS. But the 6 mile range in our airplane doesn't cut the mustard for self separation of targets. That's why we all laugh when some dude goes "got em on the fish finder". ATC doesn't care. They need visual confirmation. What makes you think because some one can see a target on their ADS-B screen they won't keep trucking inbound on thier visual because "they got em on the fish finder"? Until TCAS/ADS-B has the resolution to self deconflict and the FAA grants us the ability to do so, either you have them visually or you remain on your IFR separated flight plan. So instead of people looking outside they'll be looking inside while inbound to the local class G. Until ADS-B provides deconfliction, it won't work the way you hope it does.

Correct. And it's reiterated here what is considered primary and what is considered secondary. Now, how a pilot does that technique-wise, is purely up to him:

Traffic advisory systems can provide pilots with additional information to facilitate pilot efforts to maintain awareness of and visual contact with nearby aircraft to reduce the likelihood of a collision.......Most traffic advisory systems, including TIS, have visual displays of nearby traffic that show an aircraft’s position or distance, direction of travel, and relative altitude and indicate whether the aircraft is climbing or descending...

.....The NTSB recognizes that incorporating a visual traffic display into a pilot’s scan could increase workload, but any increase in workload would be offset by the safety benefits resulting from the augmented awareness of other aircraft operating in the area, as displayed by the traffic system. However, these safety benefits are not a substitute for the see-and-avoid concept..........Thus, pilots are responsible for paying attention to the position of other aircraft for collision avoidance and not relying solely on a traffic advisory system for aircraft position information.

 

[PositionAndHold]

What do you mean by deconfliction?

I use our lowest range on the ND and it works fine for my purposes. You still get the general picture of where the traffic is on approach. Eg, on approach to EWR 22L we commonly get certain helicopter traffic to the left of final course, and every time I see it first on the TCAs 10 mile ring, and then as we get closer I pick him up visually. Now, this isn't to say stop looking outside. But, an ADS-B traffic picture / TIS / TCAS picture should be a part of your scan.

Even 5 miles from the airport you can at least see a target in the air at the airport you're landing on. In this case, the jetliner's TCAS / TIS (if installed) should be able to show the Cessna within the airport's vicinity.

What I mean by deconfliction is what ATC provides as a service. They deconflict IFR with other traffic. Do you think ADS-B or TCAS provides this same level? Yes, TCAS will deconflict traffic in the form of a Resolution Advisory, you know, the "CLIMB, CLIMB" and matching indications on the VSI. ADS-B does not do that. Does ADS-B help your situational awareness, of course. It won't help you not run into that airplane you thought you saw on your display. So again, to say these people would be alive if they had ADS-B is waaaay off base. ADS-B is another tool in your SA tool box and that's it.

 

[MikeD]

Traffic jams are news to me. It's helpful to know where the jams are and which routes to take. Traffic accident info is good to know as well. But a high speed chase? Lets face it, this is filmed purely for entertainment value to the consumer. Because everyone tunes in to see a highspeed chase.

Agreed. High speed chases are drama and ratings, ever since the (low speed, but still a "chase") OJ situation..

I believe there's even a phone app now that will alert those who have the app as to when a high speed chase is in progress, so they can tune in to whatever news network covering it. Kind of sad.......

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Just looking up midairs on youtube, came across this...




How do I not know about this? Is there an air crash / mayday series episode about this? I have seen the Grand Canyon collision one. Can't find anything for this.

 

[MikeD]

Just looking up midairs on youtube, came across this...

How do I not know about this? Is there an air crash / mayday series episode about this? I have seen the Grand Canyon collision one. Can't find anything for this.

That was the accident that led to speeds below 10K, as well as holding speeds and procedures.

Written in blood and all.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Found one. Not the same as the crash series, but still a 22 minute video...




Gonna watch this in the hotel now.

 

[MikeD]

Ugh, just gut wrenching and heart breaking.
.

Indeed. Sad too, that in addition to the audio of his final seconds as the helo headed to earth, the helicopter was also equipped with a so-called "talent" camera, the one that films the pilot as he's giving his report live on the news broadcast. It was the one filming that caught the scream too, as well as filming the pilot in the cockpit, the whole way, down to impact, where the video ended.

 

[JeppUpdater]

That was the accident that led to speeds below 10K, as well as holding speeds and procedures.

Written in blood and all.

I think the 250/10 officially came into force after TWA 553.

Also a particularly sad crash because a photographer caught the aircraft actually turning out from its gate on the ill-fated flight:

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Indeed. Sad too, that in addition to the audio of his final seconds as the helo headed to earth, the helicopter was also equipped with a so-called "talent" camera, the one that films the pilot as he's giving his report live on the news broadcast. It was the one filming that caught the scream too, as well as filming the pilot in the cockpit, the whole way, down to impact, where the video ended.

Ugh. I hope this wasn't broadcast live.

 

[MikeD]

I think the 250/10 officially came into force after TWA 553.

Also a particularly sad crash because a photographer caught the aircraft actually turning out from its gate on the ill-fated flight:

I had thought that 250 below 10K had already been adopted by the FAA prior to this accident, but hadn't taken effect yet.

 

[tonyw]

It's going to be tough to piece this together. Hopefully we learn something from this mess.

 

[Retired in SAN]

For 15 years I flew for an ABC TV station in San Diego and had the very unpleasant pleasure of witnessing two mid airs covering unrelated stories. Something you never forget. The first involved a beech baron and a Dc-6 fire tanker over Ramona and the other was two single engine trainers departing SEE in El Cajon. Two months after my career ended with TV was the PHX accident. The two pilots I knew well. In fact, I was to fly along with one of them the week after the accident. All my time was in b206 and I wanted to get some 350 time to get back in the ENG businesses. After that accident, I never returned full time to flying again. It's been 8 years. Probably should consider getting back in the saddle again.