San Diego Crash?
- Thread starter BobDDuck
- Start date
Colin Levy
Well-Known Member
Heard the news report it was between a Cessna 172 and a Sabreliner with 3 fatalities. All I heard.
RIP
RIP
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
They "failed to see and avoid" 
Dear FAA,
Please mandate ADS-B Out and In. And please sooner than 2020. These 4 people would be alive today if both aircraft had an ADS-B solution that gave them an alert to the other aircraft's presence, position, and altitude.
Dear FAA,
Please mandate ADS-B Out and In. And please sooner than 2020. These 4 people would be alive today if both aircraft had an ADS-B solution that gave them an alert to the other aircraft's presence, position, and altitude.
bc2209
Well-Known Member
They "failed to see and avoid"
Dear FAA,
Please mandate ADS-B Out and In. And please sooner than 2020. These 4 people would be alive today if both aircraft had an ADS-B solution that gave them an alert to the other aircraft's presence, position, and altitude.
For real
PropSettin'
Low n Slow
I am looking to find a tail number on the 172, I know far too many CFI's around the area I am really hoping and praying its not any of them.
That area to the northeast there is a cluster sometimes... you have the jump strip to the east of the lake and that whole area is a funnel to brown field, RIP to those involved.
That area to the northeast there is a cluster sometimes... you have the jump strip to the east of the lake and that whole area is a funnel to brown field, RIP to those involved.
Bob Ridpath
Pit Bull love
Within the confines of my little jurisdiction yesterday, we had four people killed in two motor vehicle accidents, with five more critically injured in those two accidents, and four more sent to the hospital with lessor injury from three other collisions during my eight hour shift. Multiply that times three for the full day's coverage here, and then by a nation of motorists going hither and yon.
What is that, like 38,000 dead and countless more thousands injured during the course of every year? No matter that we take it for granted, there isn't much we do that's more deadly, despite thousands of police road patrols (nationwide) to enforce Vehicle and Traffic law. Well, unless you consider how dangerous our homes are, with ladders and stools and stairs, swimming pools and electricity and fire for cooking, and the choking hazard simple eating actually is ...
I'd personally fly in just about anything, if I didn't have to drive to the airport
What is that, like 38,000 dead and countless more thousands injured during the course of every year? No matter that we take it for granted, there isn't much we do that's more deadly, despite thousands of police road patrols (nationwide) to enforce Vehicle and Traffic law. Well, unless you consider how dangerous our homes are, with ladders and stools and stairs, swimming pools and electricity and fire for cooking, and the choking hazard simple eating actually is ...
I'd personally fly in just about anything, if I didn't have to drive to the airport
They "failed to see and avoid"
Dear FAA,
Please mandate ADS-B Out and In. And please sooner than 2020. These 4 people would be alive today if both aircraft had an ADS-B solution that gave them an alert to the other aircraft's presence, position, and altitude.
Until the dynamics of this particular accident are known, nothing can be said for certain about what would've have helped or not. Especially in a pattern environment at a towered field.
That needs to be figured out first.
Dude, you're slippin'.
Phone autocorrect. Corrects it wrong even.
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
A combination of aircraft A swapped paint with aircraft B. Even with a tower, even with a tower heads up that there are 3 helicopters and a Cirrus reported 2 in sight, the Cirrus hit the 3rd helicopter and they crashed at Frederick last year. At some point enough should be enough.
PositionAndHold
Well-Known Member
Here's the map from the article. I've flown into SDM probably 50-60 times to clear customs. On a clear day we'll routinely cancel IFR over Mexico. It can be a little demanding with terrain constraints to the north, the jump zone and small aircraft in the pattern (and border patrol helo's all over the place @MikeD) But nothing out of the ordinary compared to other places we go. It looks like they both could've been on final for the 26's. Maybe a classic overtake? Some one crossing thier final into the other while turning base? Who knows. To say that ADS-B would be the end all be all is very short sighted. Back in the day the argument was for towers. This Class G airport is dangerous, we need a tower! Well people still hit each other at towered airports and I guarantee they'll still hit each other with ADS-B in and out. Especially if ADS-B doesn't deconflict traffic like TCAS. Oh, and we've still have mid airs with TCAS. Will all this tech make us safer, probably but I won't make a blanket statement that these people would be alive if they had it.
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
Within the confines of my little jurisdiction yesterday, we had four people killed in two motor vehicle accidents, with five more critically injured in those two accidents, and four more sent to the hospital with lessor injury from three other collisions during my eight hour shift. Multiply that times three for the full day's coverage here, and then by a nation of motorists going hither and yon.
What is that, like 38,000 dead and countless more thousands injured during the course of every year? No matter that we take it for granted, there isn't much we do that's more deadly, despite thousands of police road patrols (nationwide) to enforce Vehicle and Traffic law. Well, unless you consider how dangerous our homes are, with ladders and stools and stairs, swimming pools and electricity and fire for cooking, and the choking hazard simple eating actually is ...
I'd personally fly in just about anything, if I didn't have to drive to the airport
Because faaaar too many people drive like raging lunatics. It's like they evolve into this Beast that unravels their entire work day's sh*tstorm into one raging animal on the road. NJ/NYC metro drivers and the Bay Area drivers are some of the worst I've seen.
I've been driving for 15 years and have never caused an accident that was my fault. Why? Because I drive at a safe speed, let other drivers know my intentions (use turn signals, etc), keep a safe distance, and keep myself predictable to other drivers.
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
With the already mentioned Uberlingen 2002 midair and the Brazilian Legacy/GOL, can you name the others? TCAS has tremendously reduced airliner midairs, and it was mandated after the Aeromexico DC9/Piper collision straw-that-broke-the-camels-back in 1986.
PositionAndHold
Well-Known Member
I know the history of TCAS and no, I can't think of any off the top of my head an accident besides those two. TCAS gives deconflicting instructions to participating aircraft. ADS-B in its current form does not. I love my TCAS, don't want to fly with out it. But in a busy pattern in the 45 my head is out side looking. TCAS doesn't have the range to self deconflict before an RA. The six mile scale is practically useless going into busy airspace like TEB an VNY. My point is, when you say these people would be alive with ADS-B, that is a huge statement to make. There are no certainties in aviation. What happens when it comes out the Sabelriner had TCAS, thought they had the traffic insight, ignored the RA and hit the 172? Would you say that ADS-B would've saved them?
Agreed. Until we know the dynamics of this accident, its difficult to truly say what the best preventative measure would be. Any of the above scenarios you mention, are all possible at this early stage. Could've been a failure of TCAS, of ATC, of see and avoid (which legally would be primary in VMC, but we're just talking safety factors here), or a combo of all to varying degrees.
While not TCAS specifically, the midair of Channel 3/Channel 15 helicopters over PHX 8 years ago, as well as the Hudson midair, aircraft were TIS/advisory system equipped, providing more SA than just see and avoid, and the accidents still occurred.
That's why we have to know the accident dynamics first, to really be able to know what kind of help electronic systems could've provided, or not.
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Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
TIS is sporadic/hit miss. With altitudes as low as the Hudson river and the PHX choppers, you routinely hear the lady's "TIS not available" as you go below coverage altitude for where your aircraft is.
The PHX choppers are an exception because both pilots were flying and reporting what they were seeing which means much less room to look for another chopper. The Hudson river one was terrible, and I don't know if they proved that TIS indeed was working and showed them the yellow dot on their screen.
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
TCAS typically goes to TA only below 1000 AGL. I like TCAS, let alone it's RA ability, just to see the traffic in diamond shapes, their position, and relative altitude. That is a part of my scan on every approach to every airport. And I zoom in to the lowest scale on the ND screen. I did say ADS-B mandated for both In and Out. Every aircraft near ADS grond station will see another aircraft on their screen, eliminated TIS gray areas when it's not available. The traffic screen should be part of the scan a pilot uses approaching an airport, and so yes, it could have saved them.
We all said wait for the facts for Frederick and for the F16 midair in South Carolina. Both cases, the ATC told one aircraft about the other, so at least one already knew to look for it. The F16 was even given a heading, twice, if he didn't have it in sight. But pilots that think they can visually acquire and keep sight with VFR Cessnas when they fly high speed jets usually get in trouble fairly quickly. There's a reason I never call a GA aircraft in sight anymore in my airline job.