F-16 midair with small plane in SC

Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Can someone refresh my memory, what are the private pilot rules operating on or near an IR military ariway? IIRC that's an instrument airway for military folks, so around this, what are the rules for GA pilots?

Is there a min altitude for military aircraft on an IR airway? What was it in this case?
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Refresher given above.
 
OCK2F said:
At least in my experience, there hasn't been much in the way of dialogue between GA and the military in order to enhance everyone's SA. I attended a talk a few years ago given by a then-C-5 pilot (now C-17, presumably) about where their aircraft tended to operate and the best way to avoid getting too close. But this was because their base -- Martinsburg, WV -- was just to the north of the practice area used by the local flight schools. I think that more events like this would help both sides better understand what the other is normally doing.
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Almost every base I've flown at had a local civilian outreach program called MACA -- Mid Air Collision Avoidance -- that the base Safety shop performed. They'd hold meetings with local flyers, distribute posters showing local training areas and routes to/from those areas, even bring pilots and controllers on base to see things from the military's perspective.

If you fly near an AFB and are interested in one of these familiarization programs, telephone the base and ask for Wing Safety. Talk to the Chief of Flight Safety, and I guarantee they'd be happy to invite you to something they have organized, or help you set up an event if they don't have one planned.

Here's is Shaw AFB's website for MACA:
http://www.shaw.af.mil/library/maca/index.asp

Here's an example of one of the posters that Shaw's safety office produced for MACA:
AFD-140813-013.gif
 
MikeD said:
Refresher given above.
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On the altitudes, a good thing to know is the numbering system for MTRs, both VR and IR. If the MTR has a 3-digit number, ie- VR-244, IR-168, that means that there are segments along that route that have portions above 1500 AGL. If the MTR is 4-digit, ie- VR 1288, IR-1403; that means that there are no segments on that route that are above 1500 AGL.
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Given that this was near Sumter / CHS AFBs, why weren't these routes within a MOA? And of those 3-digit segments, how would a GA pilot know which segment could be above 1,500 AGL?
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Can someone refresh my memory, what are the private pilot rules operating on or near an IR military ariway? IIRC that's an instrument airway for military folks, so around this, what are the rules for GA pilots?

Is there a min altitude for military aircraft on an IR airway? What was it in this case?
Click to expand...

IR routes aren't airways -- they are low level military training routes, just like VRs and SRs. Each route has different, specific min and max altitudes, as well as widths. The specific routes, rules, sizes, etc, are defined in a US DoD publication called "AP/1B", which is available for download online.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
why weren't these routes within a MOA?
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This is like asking, "why aren't Victor Routes in Class A Airspace?"

MTRs are low level training routes. MOAs can be at just about any altitude up to FL180 (and they're ATCAAs above 180). They are different types of airspace with different purposes.
 
I just clipped a screenshot from an old AP/1B for the MTR in question for this particular midair, IR 018, so you can see an example of the information in there.
 

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MikeD said:
Hell, I'm even guilty of failing to see and avoid, in VMC, in airspace with light to heavy civil traffic, and we were lucky nothing ever happened. Want to know unsafe? But a risk we accepted in the USAF?

In the highly-automated partial-glass F-117A, the Sensor Display system for Nav/Attack is one SA-sucking piece of equipment. When training stateside, I'd regularly be on autopilot during the 5 to 10 minute final attack runs, and being single-pilot, I'd have to have my head buried in the display to search for, identify, and refine my target for the bomb run, including tracking the weapon to the target. All during this time the F-117A is hurtling along at .90M-.96M and changing altitudes on it's own in an altitude block with no Mk1 eyeballs scanning anything outside on a VMC day/night for traffic, etc, totally dependant on ARTCC radar for separation.

Granted, most of the time I was in Class A, but not always.....many times I was below FL180, on an IFR flightplan and under radar, but still VMC, with the requisite legal see and avoid responsibilities just like everyone else. A mission/training necessity, but I consider myself (and all of us) extremely lucky not to have had a near-miss at least, much less an actual midair, during all the times I did those missions in 3 yrs of flying the thing. It would've been so easy to hit a civil aircraft which was in cruise, completely legal to be where it was, and not remotely expecting a fighter jet with its pilot not paying attention to anything outside the cockpit; come hurtling out of nowhere and smashing into them. Especially during the times when our simulated targets were located in Terminal Areas, such as ABQ, ELP, PHX, or TUS. And whose fault would it have at least partially been, if not fully, once these details were learned in the investigation? Mine.
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On the one hand, I think all of that is incredibly interesting. Despite reading many books about the F-16, F-15E, A-10, F-105, etc., I am always continually impressed with the skill necessary to operate aircraft such as those at high speeds and low altitudes. On the other hand, it is also given me a much better appreciation of the necessity of staying well clear of, or being extra vigilant when operating around, MTRs. While there aren't any MTRs in the area that I generally operate, there are several not far to the south (between Richmond and D.C.). And there is an MOA that is in very close proximity to the practice area that I normally fly in.
 
As a newly minted private pilot, this information is very enlightening. I basically had to regurgitate the definition of MTRs, but I just assumed that any military aircraft on these routes would have super fancy radar with AWACS support and a whole team of people watching out for me. I don't recall my instructor discussing them other than to play stump the chump on the sectional. The more you know...
 
Hacker15e said:
Almost every base I've flown at had a local civilian outreach program called MACA -- Mid Air Collision Avoidance -- that the base Safety shop performed. They'd hold meetings with local flyers, distribute posters showing local training areas and routes to/from those areas, even bring pilots and controllers on base to see things from the military's perspective.

If you fly near an AFB and are interested in one of these familiarization programs, telephone the base and ask for Wing Safety. Talk to the Chief of Flight Safety, and I guarantee they'd be happy to invite you to something they have organized, or help you set up an event if they don't have one planned.

Here's is Shaw AFB's website for MACA:
http://www.shaw.af.mil/library/maca/index.asp

Here's an example of one of the posters that Shaw's safety office produced for MACA:
AFD-140813-013.gif
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I stand corrected. I guess that I never really looked beyond what is put out via FAASafety.

Upon looking at Andrew AFB's website, though, there is a link on the front page to a mid-air avoidance document. Despite the fact that it doesn't really cover where I normally operate -- it's mostly focused on the FRZ and the east side of the SFRA -- it is good to know that such resources are readily available. And I'll definitely contact their safety office to see if they organize any related events for local pilots.
 
uncreative said:
As a newly minted private pilot, this information is very enlightening. I basically had to regurgitate the definition of MTRs, but I just assumed that any military aircraft on these routes would have super fancy radar with AWACS support and a whole team of people watching out for me. I don't recall my instructor discussing them other than to play stump the chump on the sectional. The more you know...
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last time I ever worked with an AWACS of any sort (USN E-2 or USAF E-3) was in actual combat. Very very very occasionally we work with them in training, but on a run of the mill day, just running down a low level route (actually not that common in my sliver of mil aviation) or doing just about anything else in a training environment, there is no such interaction ever. Like Hacker said, there are limits to radars, and while I wouldn't say that low altitude GA traffic is anywhere near invisible (we can normally see you), such traffic also looks nearly identical to a mountain or if at much lower altitude, maybe a semi truck on a freeway......all things we regularly see on the radar scope. Looking outside is still a big deal, especially in an F-16 that basically has nothing useful to look at inside the cockpit..........I think a block 50+ might be a slightly different story, but most of my hours in the Viper have been looking purely outside, with a lizard eye on the oil pressure gauge.
 
TCAS is extremely helpful for us when we're in the low level environment, but even that has limitations. Any crop duster without a radio or transponder can be bombing around farms when our formation comes over the hill at 300' AGL. And that's only at 210 indicated.

Our routes are almost exclusively NOT IR/VR/SR routes- we make our own by hand or use canned routes from the tactics office, which could cover any space within 100nm of home. And we're usually not following centerline anyways- we'll create threats and timing problems that forces us off plan and improvising over un-briefed terrain/obstacles, day or night, and we're almost 100% of the time VFR because we're below radar coverage and even radio reception.

We take care not to plan routes through busy airspace, and annotate the chart when we need to make a position report when near an uncontrolled field as a way to mitigate, but planes are still out there. Just a threat of aviation. If you limited military aircraft to Restricted or hot MOA airspace completely, we'd be very hamstrung in our training and arguably a less effective fleet because we're not trained in dynamic situations.

Risk is risk, it never disappears. We all just have to do what we can to minimize, and accept the dangers inherent with it.
 
http://www.postandcourier.com/article/20150708/PC16/150709488

"Aaron Johnson was said to be on a solo mission to practice instrument-assisted approaches at Charleston Air Force Base and intended to return to Shaw that day."

It looks like this was not a case of the F16 cruising along IR18 fast at its 7000 foot altitude but the F16 under positive ATC control on a long final for runway 21 and the Cessna climbing out from Moncks Corner.
 
I've known plenty of pilots to do an approach in visual conditions but thats not usually what they mean if they say "practicing instrument approaches". Maybe the military is different. Do these aircraft have a heads up display?
 
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