M20B_pilot
Well-Known Member
Wow dude, you are seriously drunk on the koolaid! 
SeaPort Airlines.....
- Thread starter flyguy25
- Start date
av8tr1
"Never tell me the odds!"
Captains are bailing because they have shiny jet syndrome and think that single engine time is worthless. They use SeaPort as a stepping stone to get to better airlines. SeaPort management knows this and actively encourages it. Hence the flow through program they are working hard on. You are not worked like a dog. This isn't a bad place to work, there is nothing unsafe there. In fact SeaPort is probably one of the best options for new pilots.
Just about every employer in this industry has a some sort of training contract. They are going to spend the money on you, they want to get their investment back. Since so many young eager pilots think they are entitled to free training so they can bail for something they think is better once they pass the check ride the company has to put this in place. Thats not the way the real world works. They invest close to $10,000 in your training to be a SeaPort pilot. They would be stupid not to have a training contract in place.
Contrary to the rumors going around there is no additional contract once you make Captain. You can make Captain and bail the next day.
This is made VERY clear long before you start. HR tells you this during your interview, its on your employment offer letter, its stated in the first day of ground school and its on the contract you sign when you start flight training. The CP even gives you time to run the contract by a lawyer before signing it. So new hires know full well what they are "getting into". If by that time they haven't figured it out they are too stupid to be flying people around in tubes of metal.
So how about you stop being vague and pu$$y-footing around and tell us straight up why you got fired and still owe on your training contract or are you going to continue to refer to some unknown player at the company who has a DUI and somehow that makes the whole organization questionable.
When you come clean, and have anything factual then I'll put down the koolaid.
ctab5060X
Well-Known Member
Dude...
CHILL!
Please put the glass of koolaid down and take a look around.
Almost nobody in the airline industry makes you sign a training contract anymore. Heck, there are pilots that are going to one airline that will get them their ATP, get past IOE, and promptly bail to their preferred airline. AND ARE BEING ENCOURAGED TO DO SO! Furthermore, unless they have increased the training contract, it is $7500 for training, not $10000. Knowing you have a training contract and being able to allow an attorney to read over it doesn't constitute a new hire knowing what they are "getting into".
Captains aren't leaving because they have SJS, they are leaving because they actually want quality of life. Even regional airlines do a better job with that than SeaPort. To do 120 hours a month, you need a minimum of 15 days at the 8 hour maximum, so better round that up to 19-20. 10-11 days off with that much flight time, hand flown, month-after-month... You don't have either the time or the energy to want to do anything else. TRUST ME. Come back to this after you've flown the line at 100+ hours a month for 6+ months and see if you have the same tune. (p.s. That amount of flying is generally accepted as "working like a dog".)
Also, go back and redhead what I have posted... I have not mentioned anybody having a DUI.
As far as you ASSuming I was fired...
I left on good terms and paid the full amount of the training contract within 45 days of when I turned my badge in.
Just ask @Stryker172 and @M20B_pilot
So much for being fired and still owing money...
Now, I've come clean and given you some facts.
Will you put the koolaid down now?
av8tr1
"Never tell me the odds!"
Dude...
CHILL!
Please put the glass of koolaid down and take a look around.
Almost nobody in the airline industry makes you sign a training contract anymore. Heck, there are pilots that are going to one airline that will get them their ATP, get past IOE, and promptly bail to their preferred airline. AND ARE BEING ENCOURAGED TO DO SO! Furthermore, unless they have increased the training contract, it is $7500 for training, not $10000. Knowing you have a training contract and being able to allow an attorney to read over it doesn't constitute a new hire knowing what they are "getting into".
Captains aren't leaving because they have SJS, they are leaving because they actually want quality of life. Even regional airlines do a better job with that than SeaPort. To do 120 hours a month, you need a minimum of 15 days at the 8 hour maximum, so better round that up to 19-20. 10-11 days off with that much flight time, hand flown, month-after-month... You don't have either the time or the energy to want to do anything else. TRUST ME. Come back to this after you've flown the line at 100+ hours a month for 6+ months and see if you have the same tune. (p.s. That amount of flying is generally accepted as "working like a dog".)
Also, go back and redhead what I have posted... I have not mentioned anybody having a DUI.
As far as you ASSuming I was fired...
I left on good terms and paid the full amount of the training contract within 45 days of when I turned my badge in.
Just ask @Stryker172 and @M20B_pilot
So much for being fired and still owing money...
Now, I've come clean and given you some facts.
Will you put the koolaid down now?
Name one single airline that is paying for pilots to get their ATP, IOE, and after spending all this money on their training then encouraging them to quit and go to a competitor.
Then when you wake from your nap we can talk like adults.
In the meantime chew on this, SeaPort SPENDS over $10,000 on pilot training but only asks for $7500 for the training contract. Again if after having been told repeatedly what the training contract entails, by HR, the offer letter, in ground school, by the chief pilot and then having the chance as you suggest to have an attorney review the training contract you still don't have a grasp on the situation, not only should you not be flying people around in high speed tubes of metal, you probably shouldn't be allowed to walk around without a helmet.
So what is it specifically that you think is being hidden? In my ground school and the one we just recently had, the CP made it very clear the number of hours of flight time you could expect. In point of fact I was given a copy of the new bid so I could do Flight Time and Duty calculations. So I knew full well what the routes were way back in ground school. So what is this that you think new pilots don't understand?
I understand that you think 100+ hours a month is a lot of work time. In the real world, where I worked before I got back into aviation, my hours were usually around 180 a month. SeaPort requires its pilots to show 45 minutes before a flight. So if my bid is 100 hours that month, I might add an additional 15 hours of work to my schedule in a month. Still WAY below what any other adult in any other industry would work for a full time job. YES, yes.....I know being a pilot is so much more demanding work than writing WENIS reports all day. This BTW is probably how airline pilots got the reputation of being whiny and do everything they can to avoid work.
While you might think I am on my first job as a professional pilot, as I mentioned before I've been flying since the early 90s. I flew helicopters first in the Army and then part 91. No autopilots. No 120 hour a month limits. I regularly flew 8+ hours a day low level. None of this get to 3000 feet and turn on the auto pilot and shoot the bull about "work work work". While this is my first airline job it isn't my first rodeo. Hell 2 weeks ago I flew over 20 hours in our helicopter just in one weekend (part time job, not SeaPort). I was flying rides at an airshow in Texas. Was having a blast. My heli job boss couldn't get me out of the helicopter for anything (hell I pee'd on the skids in front of everyone at one point when the line was a 2 hours deep wait). Many days at the company were over 20 hours of work. Up at 5am to get the helicopter ready for a 7am showtime. Fly till sunset, get the helicopter back to the hanger (sometimes by trailer sometimes flying) only to do it again the next day. So getting limited to a 120 hour of work in a month is a vacation.
I'll be honest I don't think YOU have a good grasp of these concepts. However I am sure you will do well where ever you go and SeaPort lost out on a great employee when you left.
I am going back for another glass of koolaid. This stuff is delicious!
True story. I have also worked in a non-flying office job for a number of years and never put in less than 160 hours a month--and any office job that does in today's business environment isn't paying an attractive salary. The workforce is competitive as ever, and unless you're highly skilled or bring experience to the table that speaks for itself, I don't think anyone (pilots or business people) stands a chance anymore at having a decent work/life balance and making the amount of money that satisfies them.
People need to take responsibility in persuing the careers that satisfy them--whether it's for financial reasons or personal fulfillment, and sometimes, sadly, you can't have both.
Tram
Well-Known Member
Well, I'm far from an expert on the matter, but I don't recall ever being asked how much SE SIC or SE PIC I had..
I have been asked on more than one occasion, and early on in my career my answer deemed me unqualified for the position, how much ME PIC I had.
Right seat Caravan time is about as useful in your logbook as VD is in your health records.
ctab5060X
Well-Known Member
Never said that the airlines were encouraging that behavior. Thanks for ASSuming again...
First off, the Caravan is hardly a high speed tube of metal.
Again... "Knowing you have a training contract and being able to allow an attorney to read over it doesn't constitute a new hire knowing what they are 'getting into'."
Never said it was flight time that was being hidden, but thanks for ASSuming again...
Since I have respect for my friends and colleagues still at SeaPort, I am not going to divulge any details.
You're only looking at flight time...
You do know that your duty time (the time you are at work) usually exceeds 200 hours a month.
Honestly trying to help you here, but I hope you take that into account with your Part 135 flight and duty times for SeaPort.
NewYorkophile
Fly Casual
@ctab5060X
I'm not really sure what you expect of a small caravan 135 feeder establishment. It's a "first-stop" place, not a career destination. The Fedex feeders are going to suck up anyone who wants to stick around in a caravan and not move on to 121.
They're an EAS business- they survive by cutting costs and increasing efficiency to under-bid other companies. You're not going to ever get 121-level QOL or pay at a 135 EAS provider.
Do the paychecks clear? Do you fly a lot? Are the bases not complete s***? Are the people fun? Is the equipment safe? If you can answer yes to all of those, you're probably in a good 135 op.
Just an outsiders' perspective...it sounds like you want Regional or Greater benefits at an EAS joint.
I'm not really sure what you expect of a small caravan 135 feeder establishment. It's a "first-stop" place, not a career destination. The Fedex feeders are going to suck up anyone who wants to stick around in a caravan and not move on to 121.
They're an EAS business- they survive by cutting costs and increasing efficiency to under-bid other companies. You're not going to ever get 121-level QOL or pay at a 135 EAS provider.
Do the paychecks clear? Do you fly a lot? Are the bases not complete s***? Are the people fun? Is the equipment safe? If you can answer yes to all of those, you're probably in a good 135 op.
Just an outsiders' perspective...it sounds like you want Regional or Greater benefits at an EAS joint.
ctab5060X
Well-Known Member
I hate to say it, but this is why we are our own worst enemy... the desire not to change or improve.
There are some great things about places like SeaPort, but a few small changes here or there and these 135 EAS operators could stop being a revolving door for pilots and become a place where pilots might not count down the days until their contract is up.
Honestly, I'm tired of trying to help newbies take off the blinders and see beyond the pretty wrapping management will always wrap an operation in these days.
Roger Roger
Bottom of the list
Holy cow dude.
Roger Roger
Bottom of the list
Nah, they'll just scrape by until the next downturn when they'll be able to shake a tree and have 4 CFIs eager to move on and 5 furloughed airline pilots fall out.
Roger Roger
Bottom of the list
This is great.
I'm not taking sides with anyone here and appreciate all of the information (good and bad), but if you can't express a professional opinion about your experience or insight you're banter is of little to no value.
@Roger Roger I'm sure you don't expect anyone to take your comments seriously by quoting other forum users that express your self serving interests. If you have some value to add to this conversation it'd be great to here it, but please at least provide it in some coherent context to your experience.
Let's act like the professional pilots we are and expect to be treated as.
@Roger Roger I'm sure you don't expect anyone to take your comments seriously by quoting other forum users that express your self serving interests. If you have some value to add to this conversation it'd be great to here it, but please at least provide it in some coherent context to your experience.
Let's act like the professional pilots we are and expect to be treated as.
It might help if you try and answer that before asking.
Tram
Well-Known Member
No, no. May just be me, but I'm not picking up on that "Let's act like the professional pilots we are and treat each other as we expect to be treated" vibe in your reply. Surely curt answers are not on the list of attributes of a professional pilot now are they?
You're giving sermonets on how a professional pilot acts.
Please, expound.
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My response was in regards to providing value to the conversation based on substance. This conversation has gotten away from that except for a few people who've provided information about SeaPort or their experience flying for a career. The candid responses in that regard are constructive and on topic for someone looking into this operation.
Tram
Well-Known Member
This thread has turned into 2 primary posters, both giving their POV of SeaPort.
The biggest difference in these two posters that I've have noticed is experience in the industry.
A Life Aloft
Well-Known Member
And people wonder why there is little to no unity in pilot groups, let alone support for one another. Good grief.
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NewYorkophile
Fly Casual
Like what? Raise pay, increase days off (therefore hiring more pilots) to levels of a FFD carrier, and you'll likely soon be outbid and go out of business. Revolving doors aren't necessarily bad things.