Children of the Magenta (Video)

BobDDuck said:
I beg to differ. I got rolled 103 degrees (as pulled from the FDR) taking off behind a 330 on 9L in PHL one night long ago in a CRJ.
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Light jet :D

For the audience that video was directed to though, AA narrowbody and widebody airliners, it was not realistic. And this is why the NTSB cited the elements of the AAMP in their final report for the AA A300 crash near JFK.

In Captain VanderBurgh's defense, he did say a small amount of coordinated rudder. He never mentioned slamming a rudder full left/right. But the 90 degree flip in a simulator was unrealistic for AA crews who were told they were behind a 747 that just departed. As it fatefully happened, the crew of AA 587 knew that a JAL 747 just took off in front of them.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
I agree. But just keep in mind the NTSB had harsh words for the VanderBurgh's AAMP. The wake turbulence scenario AA pilots were getting at the time in the sim was..... they were told they are taking off behind a heavy 747, that is all. Then the wake hits, the sim would show a slight bank to one side, say 10 degrees, followed by a sharp 90 degree bank to the other side. During this crazy bank set-up, the pilots input to the control yoke and rudders were disengaged. Only once the aircraft was one wing low almost 90 degrees on its side, the sim was 'released' and the pilots would recover based on what they learned in the video. The NTSB harshly came down on this for the obvious reasons: 1. pausing the sim actions until deeply established in the 90 degree bank could reinforce bad habits for a pilot in the initial reaction to wake turbulence. Remember, whatever they did in those first seconds didn't make a difference until the sim aircraft was on its side almost 90 deg bank. So this was negative training. 2. Level D sims these days just can't model severe unusual attitudes as one would think. The realism beyond 80-90 deg bank isn't the same. 3. And perhaps the most obvious, never in history of airliners has a widebody jetliner (like an A300) ever been flipped 90 degrees to its side due to wake. Even in an A320 the worst I've seen was ~ 20 degrees bank. You don't flip over unless you're in a Cessna or light business turboprop/light jet. Commercial narrowbody and widebody jetliners like AA has? No way would you enter anything close to a 90 degree bank for wake.
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Agreed. However, me flying Corporate GA I'm still interested on the theory behind things, so this is pearls to me. I know that for an Airliner this may not work, but again, I'm taking what I can from it, learn from it. IE You get to go to Flight Safety once a year, if you are lucky. This gets you some theory at least, which helps. On practice, that's a whooole different story

Take Care
 
BobDDuck said:
Nope. But for about 3 seconds, as I watched the lights of the Old Philadelphia Navy Yard disappear out the BOTTOM of the window, I considered rolling all the way around.

My comment was more about the fact that Part 25, 121 Aircraft can most certainly get rolled hard.
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Good thing the 200 rolls like a fighter plane!

I did a reasearch paper on wakes, and an airplane of the same make and model can cause enough wake to crash the one trailing... as in a crj200 follwing anouther company crj 200 can get into severe enough wake to lose controll. Doesn't have ot be behind a larger aircraft.
 
mastermags said:
XJT had a CRJ get flipped on final about a total of 140 degrees earlier this year at 3000'
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I've had the Brasilia's aileron AND RUDDER (slowly and gently, mind you, after I ran out of aileron and ideas) to the stop and still been rolling behind a 767 when departing the 28s.

"Um..."

Was 'fun'.
 
BobDDuck said:
I'd watched it a few years ago but what it really drove home to me (especially after reading US Airway's FOM 2 as well) is how poor our training is down here in Regional World. I know some places (ExpressJet and Eagle) do spend a lot of time on some things (our "CRM" block was 25 minutes... ExpressJet's is a day or so), but in general it is pretty sad how little they teach us and how much we need to go out and learn ourselves if we want the knowledge and skills.
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We spend two whole days on CRM in initial/new hire, and then spend at least one more day in our footprint, after our systems final, on CRM in transition/upgrade.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Don't you teach GA?

The problem is a lack of understanding of the automation, not an over reliance on it.
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You're almost there, but too shallow. You're right that the lack of understanding is the root cause, but then relying on said functionality that they don't understand what it's doing and lacking in stick and rudder/pitch power ability is the true issue. "looking without seeing" is a major issue, IE not knowing what the FMA is telling them and losing SA in high stress situations.

A bunch of people almost died on a certain narrowbody airliner that I love to hate a few months ago due to that very issue.
 
Worrying about the stick and rudder is a mistake. The focus needs to be on understanding the automation and encouraging its use. Every check airman should be slapping people upside the head when they turn off the automation at the first sign of anything unusual. Make them learn it! Don't let them take the cop out of "click click, click click."
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Worrying about the stick and rudder is a mistake. The focus needs to be on understanding the automation and encouraging its use. Every check airman should be slapping people upside the head when they turn off the automation at the first sign of anything unusual. Make them learn it! Don't let them take the cop out of "click click, click click."
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Pilots need to understand how to do both and when to do each.
 
jwp_145 said:
Good thing the 200 rolls like a fighter plane!

I did a reasearch paper on wakes, and an airplane of the same make and model can cause enough wake to crash the one trailing... as in a crj200 follwing anouther company crj 200 can get into severe enough wake to lose controll. Doesn't have ot be behind a larger aircraft.
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Worst ass beating I've ever gotten was from an ERJ-135 going into ORD. Was severe enough to kick the auto pilot off on its own. Strangest damn thing that I ever did see.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Worrying about the stick and rudder is a mistake. The focus needs to be on understanding the automation and encouraging its use. Every check airman should be slapping people upside the head when they turn off the automation at the first sign of anything unusual. Make them learn it! Don't let them take the cop out of "click click, click click."
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This is the most out there argument I've ever seen you post. I don't know where to begin with my rebuttal.
 
Polar742 said:
You don't know what you're talking about. Until you work the schoolhouse and see how people perform, you're speaking from your occasional line flight.
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Many thousands of hours over 14 years is "occasional?" Okay. :rolleyes:
 
Gonzo said:
I heard about it, holy poop that could have been ugly. How it got to the point it did is crazy.




Should not be out in the public, let's just say it was ugly.
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How are others to learn? What was this, A320? Automation error? High altitude stall/issue? I for one would like to know so I can avoid the same mistake / incident.

You can PM me and I will keep it to myself.
 
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