Pay to Fly - A concern

typhoonpilot

Well-Known Member
Rise in pay-to-fly pilot numbers raises ECA concerns
London
Source:
15:06 30 Apr 2015
Despite years of protest from the pilot community, pay-to-fly schemes are becoming more common, according to the European Cockpit Association. The term refers to a practice whereby inexperienced but licensed pilots who want to gain experience to become more employable pay to act as crew on commercial or business aviation flights.

ECA President Dirk Polloczek explains: “Airlines are constantly reinventing models to get cheaper labour, like hiring self-employed or fake-self-employed pilots, pilots on temporary work agency contracts, or on zero-hours contracts.”

But, he adds, “P2F takes such unacceptable practices to a wholly different level: the employment of young pilots is no longer an investment by the airline in its staff but a simple revenue generator. It is a blunt abuse and exploitation of young, low-hours pilots who are desperate to find a job.”

The issue is becoming more common in the USA where, following a commuter airline accident some years ago, Congress ruled that pilots must have 1,500h of airborne experience before flying for US commercial carriers.

Miami, Florida-based EagleJet International, as one example, has capitalised on the situation by offering low-hour pilots the opportunity to gain 1,000h flying Airbus A320s for an “Asian airline” or others, and charging the pilot for the privilege, with no guarantee of any pay for the work or of a job with the airline at the end of the contract. Now EagleJet is offering European pilots this opportunity for €87,500 ($97,400).

The ECA is worried that the idea is gaining ground with operators in Europe. Secretary general Philip von Schöppenthau says: “P2F provides a perverse incentive for a pilot to fly at any cost. Few will admit it, but when you have paid up to €50,000 to fly this plane, you will think twice before deciding not to fly today because you feel sick or fatigued.”

Aviation authorities say there is no regulation that forbids this, because pilot pay is not within their remit.Polloczek warns low-hour pilots not to take this route, and praises airlines such as EasyJet who have cadetship schemes to enable pilots who might normally be unable to raise the loans to pay for their training to enter the profession.
 
Aviation authorities say there is no regulation that forbids this, because pilot pay is not within their remit.Polloczek warns low-hour pilots not to take this route, and praises airlines such as EasyJet who have cadetship schemes to enable pilots who might normally be unable to raise the loans to pay for their training to enter the profession.

It is illegal in most European countries, but yeah there are always ways to get around it and there is a huge gray area around "training costs".

There are two problems in Europe: 1st that there is no real General Aviation with positions open to fresh licensed pilots so that you can work up your way up, this has always been the case, most pilots that have worked their way from the bottom up to the airlines usually had to spend 2-3 years bush flying in Africa (this opportunities are also diminishing as there are more and more local pilot in those regions) or very few flight instructing. The second problem has to do with SJS, I get asked all the time when I'm gonna fly for an airline or a jet...and they refer to my current job as "time building", a real pilot flies a jet for an airline, this seems to be the general goal and idea in the European Aviation...

There is a huge work culture difference between Europe and the USA, for example: working for free is not seen the same way. When you finish middle school you have the option to start and apprenticeship with a company in a field or profession you are interested in, it`s usually paired with couple days a week of school...most apprenticeship positions are not remunerated and can last 4-5 years, you are still in "high school age" so probably still living with your parents and so on. This packages for pilots (pay to fly) are seen the same way, unfortunately.
 
I have about 10 former students who have paid for some type of job in Europe. 3-4 have gone to Ryan Air. I think it costs about 40k euros to complete their type rating training.
 
It is illegal in most European countries, but yeah there are always ways to get around it and there is a huge gray area around "training costs".

There are two problems in Europe: 1st that there is no real General Aviation with positions open to fresh licensed pilots so that you can work up your way up, this has always been the case, most pilots that have worked their way from the bottom up to the airlines usually had to spend 2-3 years bush flying in Africa (this opportunities are also diminishing as there are more and more local pilot in those regions) or very few flight instructing. The second problem has to do with SJS, I get asked all the time when I'm gonna fly for an airline or a jet...and they refer to my current job as "time building", a real pilot flies a jet for an airline, this seems to be the general goal and idea in the European Aviation...

There is a huge work culture difference between Europe and the USA, for example: working for free is not seen the same way. When you finish middle school you have the option to start and apprenticeship with a company in a field or profession you are interested in, it`s usually paired with couple days a week of school...most apprenticeship positions are not remunerated and can last 4-5 years, you are still in "high school age" so probably still living with your parents and so on. This packages for pilots (pay to fly) are seen the same way, unfortunately.


I appreciate what you are saying, but it gets worse. These are then the same people who, even after they get experience in an A320 or B737, will go on to sign a ridiculous bond and bank guarantee to step up to a widebody in Asia or somewhere else ( Norwegian, Scoot, NokScoot, EVA, China Airlines, Singapore Airlines, Qatar, etc.). It's a never ending cycle that drastically reduces the pay and benefit packages on offer for those of use who will not prostitute ourselves for career advancement.

If ALPA and IFALPA want to do something pro-active for the profession they might address this issue in some form or fashion. Perhaps an education campaign in Europe, Asia, and the USA to point out the pitfalls to the profession when pilots pay for training.



Typhoonpilot
 
It's not really an ALPA thing, as no US carriers are doing PFT nowadays. IFALPA should definitely be working on it, though. If ECA is, I'm sure IFALPA is assisting.
 
I have about 10 former students who have paid for some type of job in Europe. 3-4 have gone to Ryan Air. I think it costs about 40k euros to complete their type rating training.

Ryanair isn't actually pay to fly. You have to pay for your type rating (€29,000, but that's what a type rating costs in Europe, no joke), but you get paid first day on the line. It is common in Europe at the moment that you have to pay for your type rating. The people who don't get hired by Ryanair or other companies are usually the ones who go to North Africa or Southeast Asia and pay upwards of $90,000 in order to "work" and gain hours on an Airbus or Boeing. I know a couple of guys who have done this. Believe it or not, I know a couple guys who have done this and they were able to secure a real job elsewhere (usually places like Qatar and Wizzair), but I don't agree with it. I went to Europe for a few years and I can tell you first hand that there are lots of low time pilots desperate for their break right now. Most would rather do something else than spend another $90,000 to possibly further their career, but there are a few who will go to any means to try to reach their goal.

P2F isn't new, but I would like to see it go away all together.
 
It's not really an ALPA thing, as no US carriers are doing PFT nowadays. IFALPA should definitely be working on it, though. If ECA is, I'm sure IFALPA is assisting.

The P2F scam in Canada with Air Georgian seems to have vanished in the last month. You can't find it on their website anymore, and whats left over are just broken links. Hehehe

The bigger question to ask is how do we, or you, or the industry, teach up and coming pilots not to bite on P2F offers?
 
The P2F scam in Canada with Air Georgian seems to have vanished in the last month.
Wow...had no idea that was a thing in Canada. I flew on them from Calgary to Medicine Hat while dating a Canadian (highly recommended by the way) and chatted up the crew. Would have skipped the pleasantries had I known that.
 
AFAICT, the way to defeat this sort of thing is in the hiring board. I think we have enough history to discern that as long as there seems to an "easy" way to cut in line, someone is going to bite. But as long as pilots who didn't eat the cheese are involved in the hiring process, those who did will still find themselves in the circular file tout suite.
 
Wow...had no idea that was a thing in Canada. I flew on them from Calgary to Medicine Hat while dating a Canadian (highly recommended by the way) and chatted up the crew. Would have skipped the pleasantries had I known that.

They were the only one doing it, and the program is on "hiatus" right now according to Georgian. The program was called "Air Georgian Cadet Program", you paid 60k to go to Flight Safety in Florida and get typed on the 1900D, then you had to spend a minimum of four years (12k a year bond) with Georgian. They dangled the "Move on up to Air Canada!" carrot in the description of the program.

AFAICT, the way to defeat this sort of thing is in the hiring board. I think we have enough history to discern that as long as there seems to an "easy" way to cut in line, someone is going to bite. But as long as pilots who didn't eat the cheese are involved in the hiring process, those who did will still find themselves in the circular file tout suite.

Agreed. I suggest dignity is taught as a ground school module in the CPL programs. Have some dignity, as a pilot you have a skill that not that many people on this earth have. You should be compensated fairly for your abilities. If some airlines aren't going to pay you for a while, whats the point of a CPL then? Might as well just apply to these operators with a PPL. You can't fly for reward if you have a PPL, and these airlines aren't offering a reward. Have some dignity and work for money.
 
It's not really an ALPA thing, as no US carriers are doing PFT nowadays. IFALPA should definitely be working on it, though. If ECA is, I'm sure IFALPA is assisting.


Even if that is true, there have been a number of Americans who have gone down to Lion Air and participated in their P2F program. It can't have been too long ago that Silver Airways still had a program and even Ameriflight has had a ride along SIC program of sorts for Europeans in years past. Go back to the beginning of Valujet and it was $9900 to join the airline. Mesa too, was $10,000 to join in the early 90s.

The point is, it's a program that is always out there lurking. Wouldn't it be better to educate up and coming pilots on the pitfalls of participating?

In the corporate world you can still see the mentality with pilots offering to pay for a portion or all of their initial training.

Yes, the "pilot shortage" is helping to reduce the problem yet that is only masking the underlying human nature of both pilots and employers to participate in it.



TP
 
Even if that is true, there have been a number of Americans who have gone down to Lion Air and participated in their P2F program. It can't have been too long ago that Silver Airways still had a program and even Ameriflight has had a ride along SIC program of sorts for Europeans in years past. Go back to the beginning of Valujet and it was $9900 to join the airline. Mesa too, was $10,000 to join in the early 90s.

I'm pretty sure Silver never had a PFT scam going. It died with Gulfstream.

But yes, lots of airlines, including respected regionals like ACA and ASA had PFT scams going back in the '90s. But we're old, and most new pilots today don't even remember the 90s. :)

The point is, it's a program that is always out there lurking. Wouldn't it be better to educate up and coming pilots on the pitfalls of participating?

Resources are always limited, so you have to prioritize. It sounds like it might be worth prioritizing at IFALPA, but definitely not at ALPA.
 
Really amazing this is still going on in any way, shape, or form.
Yes, early to mid 90's stateside was a heart-breaker.
 
Ryanair isn't actually pay to fly. You have to pay for your type rating (€29,000, but that's what a type rating costs in Europe, no joke), but you get paid first day on the line. It is common in Europe at the moment that you have to pay for your type rating. The people who don't get hired by Ryanair or other companies are usually the ones who go to North Africa or Southeast Asia and pay upwards of $90,000 in order to "work" and gain hours on an Airbus or Boeing. I know a couple of guys who have done this. Believe it or not, I know a couple guys who have done this and they were able to secure a real job elsewhere (usually places like Qatar and Wizzair), but I don't agree with it. I went to Europe for a few years and I can tell you first hand that there are lots of low time pilots desperate for their break right now. Most would rather do something else than spend another $90,000 to possibly further their career, but there are a few who will go to any means to try to reach their goal.

P2F isn't new, but I would like to see it go away all together.
You can get an EASA 737 type done for half that, or less. Ryanair won't accept you unless you go through their course. It is a profit center for them. There are places in the UK who will do it for about 20k euros.
 
You can get an EASA 737 type done for half that, or less. Ryanair won't accept you unless you go through their course. It is a profit center for them. There are places in the UK who will do it for about 20k euros.

True, cadet FOs do have to go through the Ryanair type rating and it is more than a handful of other TRTOs, but with base training included, it is hard to find any TRTO offering any jet type rating in Europe for less than €20,000, which is way more expensive than the equivalent type ratings in the US. CAE charges the same amount for a B717 type rating, and some Airbus TRTOs charge as much as €40,000. I think it is ridiculous, but it is not the same as a true pay 2 fly.
 
You can get an EASA 737 type done for half that, or less. Ryanair won't accept you unless you go through their course. It is a profit center for them. There are places in the UK who will do it for about 20k euros.

This is not correct, and you are confusing things.

Ryan Air does have/had preference to hire pilots coming with MCCs done in specific places, but right now they just take about any MCC course.

You will get accepted (conditionally) before doing your type rating, Ryan Air does not own the training facility where you get the type rating done, they only have a training contract with them, pilots from all over the world train there, the portion of the training done in the UK is also part of the bill and that facility is owned by Ryan Air. The type rating you get with Ryan Air is part of their approved training course under the AOC they operate, it is the same for every large company in Europe.

Some airlines in Europe charge around 18K for a type rating, but they use their own simulators, Ryan air outsources as much as they can.
 
You really can't compare type rating costs between USA and Europe.

A full EASA type rating consists of up to 3 weeks of ground school, 32 hours of Jet Orientation Training, 40 hours of class D simulator and 1 hour flight and 6 landings to a full stop in the real aircraft!

If you are already type rated and switching type, like from Boeing to Airbus it is mandatory to take 36 hours of transition training.
 
Some ramblings:

It is disturbing that certain carriers have normalized the practice of having their pilots pay for their own type ratings. The legacies don't do this (BA, LH, SAS, KLM, Iberia, etc) and to my knowledge, their "regionals" don't either. The low cost carriers have no problem hiring guys who are willing to pony up tens of thousands of dollars and there are (seemingly) many 250 hour guys willing to do so. I will argue that hiring guys who pay for their types decreases the quality of pilot at the company. Where along the training process will the crap ones get weeded out? If you are the "customer" the entire time, there will be no shortage of schools (TRTOs) willing to take your money until you pass.

My own personal experience was initial ERJ type and a bunch of recurrents at ExpressJet in Houston, who have their own training facility. The training was (in my opinion) top notch and the training department was constantly improving things, there was a bar that had to be met and since the company was paying for our types, we had to meet it or got the boot. With my current gig, I have done training at Flight Safety in Paris and Swiss Aviation Training in Zurich, both nowhere near as stringent as that which I did at ExpressJet. Maybe this was because when you are the "customer" you're treated with kid gloves or the standards are just not as stringent.

tl:dr
Paying for your type makes you a customer and a student, conflict of interest perhaps?


You really can't compare type rating costs between USA and Europe.

A full EASA type rating consists of up to 3 weeks of ground school, 32 hours of Jet Orientation Training, 40 hours of class D simulator and 1 hour flight and 6 landings to a full stop in the real aircraft!

I disagree, the US is the same to get a type rating other than MCC and touch and go requirements.
When i converted my FAA ATP to EASA ATPL I was REALLY surprised there was no oral portion of the checkride, kind of a joke.
 
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