Airbus Safety Officer on Reliance on Automation

PhilosopherPilot

PhilosopherPilot

Well-Known Member
http://www.wsj.com/article_email/ai...-changes-1428853600-lMyQjAxMTI1NjE4MjAxMjIzWj

This is a very interesting article, and I agree with him. We need to teach more and check less during recurrent. We also should focus on how and when to transition into/out of automation a bit more.

But I can't help but note the irony of an Airbus guy suggesting we are too reliant on automation. Is it even possible to hand fly FiFi? ;)
 
PhilosopherPilot said:
http://www.wsj.com/article_email/ai...-changes-1428853600-lMyQjAxMTI1NjE4MjAxMjIzWj

This is a very interesting article, and I agree with him. We need to teach more and check less during recurrent. We also should focus on how and when to transition into/out of automation a bit more.

But I can't help but note the irony of an Airbus guy suggesting we are too reliant on automation. Is it even possible to hand fly FiFi? ;)
Click to expand...
That was the first thought I had. "Wait, the guys who wanted us to be automation managers instead of pilots would like us to be pilots again? Fascinating!"

I almost think we should add some to our recurrent footprint, to be honest, and do some "really cool stuff" in a non-jeopardy fashion. And the disconnect from the real world that happens in the box also needs to be addressed.
 
etflies said:
I believe the gentleman from the American Airlines training video said it best.

"Click-click, click-click."
Click to expand...
I derive intense satisfaction from doing that, and blanking the FMA, on clear days.

Incidentally, I'm told our new SOPM states that we are to use the autothrottles the whole time. :confused:
 
I did CQ last week. Day one was a lot of teaching, automation off and hand-flying. I didn't realize how long it had been since I had flown a raw data (ROSE), autothrust-off, no flight director approach and missed. There is non-jeopardy "SPOT" and "first look" on day one as well.

Day two is "maneuvers validation" so it's checking with opportunity for teaching, but it's nothing like you would do on a 'type ride'.

Someone clued-in and now it's 8 lbs of sand in a 10 lbs bag so you have the opportunity to actually learn something and discuss rather than bam bam bam bam bam!
 
Autothrust Blue said:
I derive intense satisfaction from doing that, and blanking the FMA, on clear days.

Incidentally, I'm told our new SOPM states that we are to use the autothrottles the whole time. :confused:
Click to expand...

The whole time? Cripes. I'll admit, as different as the new job is I admire that they emphasize balancing automation with hand flying the jet. I'm a firm believer in practicing the levels of automation philosophy.

Derg said:
I did CQ last week. Day one was a lot of teaching, automation off and hand-flying. I didn't realize how long it had been since I had flown a raw data (ROSE), autothrust-off, no flight director approach and missed. There is non-jeopardy "SPOT" and "first look" on day one as well.

Day two is "maneuvers validation" so it's checking with opportunity for teaching, but it's nothing like you would do on a 'type ride'.

Someone clued-in and now it's 8 lbs of sand in a 10 lbs bag so you have the opportunity to actually learn something and discuss rather than bam bam bam bam bam!
Click to expand...

You mean they actually train you rather than just slam through a list of items to check off? What a novel concept!
 
Derg said:
I did CQ last week. Day one was a lot of teaching, automation off and hand-flying. I didn't realize how long it had been since I had flown a raw data (ROSE), autothrust-off, no flight director approach and missed. There is non-jeopardy "SPOT" and "first look" on day one as well.

Day two is "maneuvers validation" so it's checking with opportunity for teaching, but it's nothing like you would do on a 'type ride'.

Someone clued-in and now it's 8 lbs of sand in a 10 lbs bag so you have the opportunity to actually learn something and discuss rather than bam bam bam bam bam!
Click to expand...
How long is your guys' sim footprint again?
 
etflies said:
The whole time? Cripes. I'll admit, as different as the new job is I admire that they emphasize balancing automation with hand flying the jet. I'm a firm believer in practicing the levels of automation philosophy.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I'm going to be attempting to get that changed if they ever let me work in the school house. Until then, the A/T DISCONNECT buttons are located on the outboard side, knob-level, on either thrust lever, if you were curious. (I mean, hypothetically. :D)
 
Derg said:
CQ? Two days every 9 or so months.

Day 1 teaching
Day 2 Manuevers Val or LOE (alternates)
Click to expand...
I wish we went every 9. 12 is too long. 6 is arguably too frequently (the E75 is 6 months for Captains and 12 for FOs, because we aren't AQP yet; the remainder of the company is a 12 month AQP cycle).

Day 1, MV. Day 2, LOE. SEEYUH.
 
Autothrust Blue said:
I wish we went every 9. 12 is too long. 6 is arguably too frequently (the E75 is 6 months for Captains and 12 for FOs, because we aren't AQP yet; the remainder of the company is a 12 month AQP cycle).

Day 1, MV. Day 2, LOE. SEEYUH.
Click to expand...

No show 'n tell? Is there any "FOQA data shows y'all are screwing the pooch on the CIVET, so let's talk about it, discuss some gotchas and now you're coming off position freeze, go get 'em"?
 
Derg said:
No show 'n tell? Is there any "FOQA data shows y'all are screwing the pooch on the CIVET, so let's talk about it, discuss some gotchas and now you're coming off position freeze, go get 'em"?
Click to expand...
We're perfect all the time. :sarcasm:

I haven't done Canuckistani Jet CQ here, so I don't know what it's like on that side of the fence. The Brasilia was non-FOQA. There was very little honest to goodness instruction on the Brasilia CQ footprint, though.
 
As someone who just "survived" AQP on the CRJ side of the house at @Autothrust Blue's place, it's halfway between the two being described. Every 12 months for FOs. Day 1 is the dog and pony show, part of it combined with FAs, get to play with the safety equipment, etc. Day 2 is MV and is packed even more than usual with too much stuff to fit in to the 4 hours of sim time. Day 3 is KV with the LOE and if time remains a bit of SPOT. Under AQP captains also receive a line check at the 6 month mark between returns to the school house.
 
Landis said:
As someone who just "survived" AQP on the CRJ side of the house at @Autothrust Blue's place, it's halfway between the two being described. Every 12 months for FOs. Day 1 is the dog and pony show, part of it combined with FAs, get to play with the safety equipment, etc. Day 2 is MV and is packed even more than usual with too much stuff to fit in to the 4 hours of sim time. Day 3 is KV with the LOE and if time remains a bit of SPOT. Under AQP captains also receive a line check at the 6 month mark between returns to the school house.
Click to expand...
The first half of Common Day was always interesting. "Hey let's complain more about CRJ stuff again while the Brasilia guys sit in back and laugh, then let's watch a flight attendant do her EME recurrent."

I forgot about the line check thing. I suppose it's possible for FOs to never get line checked, although it's unlikely. (I don't think it's a requirement of our program. One summer, three different Captains got line checked three four-days in a row.)
 
I don't think it's possible to hand-fly an Airbus, without disabling computers and putting the aircraft in an undesirable state during normal operations. Even if you click off the autopilot and autothrust, you still not hand-flying as far as I'm concerned. You're still telling a computer what you want, and the computer is still doing all the work to get the airplane where you want it.
 
I got a kick out of the fact the article is about an Airbus Safety official, but the picture is of a 787. Oh wait....this is the media, nevermind
 
What's the automation level typically used at DL/spirit/VA/Allegiant on the bus? Have a good idea of the level at UAL and AA (which seems to differ substantially on AT usage).
 
woodreau said:
I don't think it's possible to hand-fly an Airbus, without disabling computers and putting the aircraft in an undesirable state during normal operations. Even if you click off the autopilot and autothrust, you still not hand-flying as far as I'm concerned. You're still telling a computer what you want, and the computer is still doing all the work to get the airplane where you want it.
Click to expand...

It's not doing a hell of a lot different than what you'd get with pulleys, pistons and vat of hydraulic fluid.

The only real differences is that "a" it's not going to auto trim and you lose some protections, but it doesn't hand fly fundamentally different than any other airliner I've flown except the mad dog.
 
Derg said:
It's not doing a hell of a lot different than what you'd get with pulleys, pistons and vat of hydraulic fluid.

The only real differences is that "a" it's not going to auto trim and you lose some protections, but it doesn't hand fly fundamentally different than any other airliner I've flown except the mad dog.
Click to expand...
With all due respect, I disagree. I'll always advocate a purely mechanical bottom line, because stuff always ends up not working. As complicated as these systems are becoming they are more prone to failure in my opinion. Murphy is a jerk, but his law somehow has persisted and been proven.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top