FM_Weasel
Well-Known Member
Conversely, my weather shows 10SM CLR and the flight crew waits until 10 miles from the airport to tell me they're IMC.
KMSP Approach and Center Controllers
- Thread starter Claskers
- Start date
Conversely, my weather shows 10SM CLR and the flight crew waits until 10 miles from the airport to tell me they're IMC.
Maximilian_Jenius
Super User
Look who's back!
jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
This was a day when it was BKN008.
It was SFO, they don't seem to understand anything but visuals.
jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
flyeagle111
CFO
You miss me?
Maximilian_Jenius
Super User
I did!
Autothrust Blue
“If you jump on my shift, that’s just rude, man.”
It's an instrument procedure, you know.
jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
Since Mr.Shiney Jet is going to be cute, then allow me to elaborate.
San Francisco is somehow able to use weather stations other than the ones at the airport in order to use visual approaches.
http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1504/00375TIPPTOE_VIS28LR.PDF
So if the weather at the bridge is above minimums, then the tower can continue to use visual approaches.
The result is that SFO is the biggest goat rope I've had the pleasure of dealing with on a regular basis. It makes me miss Newark.
Autothrust Blue
“If you jump on my shift, that’s just rude, man.”
Some of your, um, CalPac coworkers sound a little befuddled by this. (If you are uncomfortable executing this approach at minimums, that's fine - go get the ILS or the RNAV - I've done the same thing more than once, and it's hardly ever a big deal. Don't let ATC fly your plane...)
The thing about SFO is, at least in my experience, the weather is either great or below PRM minima (thus necessitating the use of simultaneous dependent ILS approaches) with little awkward in-between. The in-between is REALLY awkward though, and the marine layer is sufficiently dynamic that the field may report VFR and yet an instrument approach is still required.
FM_Weasel
Well-Known Member
I have several towers working under my approach control. I realize they're not radar controllers (not all of them anyway) but it ticks me off when they don't speak up and tell me that visuals are unlikely as hell despite what the METAR says. We ALL need to do a better job of sharing pertinent information.
jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
I think hubs tend to shove visuals down pilots throats so they don't have to slow the arrival rate. I've seen SFO and lax spin airplanes out of the sequence because they won't call the airport (Lakes the other day if you'd believe it), only to try to clear them for the visual again.
It's not an everyday thing, but when things get marginal it happens.
FM_Weasel
Well-Known Member
Losing visuals does significantly slow things down. Where I work it's not busy enough to be a problem, the flight crews tend to feel punished when I DO insist on vectoring them for an instrument approach because visuals are unlikely. Still, you get those days where everyone sees the airport except that one guy. I guess the inverse happens at the busier places.
I'm hugely off topic though, sorry. Good job MSP guys for providing great service to VFRs. It's an attitude that should be encouraged everywhere.
I'm hugely off topic though, sorry. Good job MSP guys for providing great service to VFRs. It's an attitude that should be encouraged everywhere.
I got sent around all throughout creation because I didn't have DTW in sight. The FO swore he had it, but unless we both see it, no one sees it. I had him point to the airport and it was Willow Run. At that point, it seems like approach wanted to teach us a lesson by groaning and vectoring us off the arrival path, but that's alright. If I can't confidently see the airport, the risks are far, far too high trying to be Joe Cool.
FM_Weasel
Well-Known Member
I worked a Southwest flight that had a stuck mic while they were looking for the airport. The conversation was 100% professional, and it clued me in to how the process goes on the flight deck.
Yes, I need to do flight deck training some day. As cool as it is, I don't want to shave. I am a private pilot though so that's.....something?
Yes, I need to do flight deck training some day. As cool as it is, I don't want to shave. I am a private pilot though so that's.....something?
jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
Having your private license is huge to knowing what's going on. It just happens faster with much worse avionics in an airliner cockpit.
Ozelot
Frozen Tundra TRACON
Here at MSP, we try to use visual approaches to the maximum extent possible (I'm sure every facility does ;-) ). It is MUCH easier to work then utilizing the parallel dependant ILS approaches. Having that said, some controllers will and some controllers won't push it. Just this morning it was clear and a billion out, and my first arrival didn't pick out the airport until 6 mile final due to do the sun angle and haze. He said it was only easy for him to see at that point because he is familiar, after the second plane concurred I looked to the fella working the south parallel and said "I think it might be time to go to ILS".
I guess i'd personally rather just switch ya'll to instruments over pushing visuals and hoping you see it, even though it is more work. It's less of a headache in the end for you guys and then you won't have to go around or be vectored back out because of my stubbornness.
I guess i'd personally rather just switch ya'll to instruments over pushing visuals and hoping you see it, even though it is more work. It's less of a headache in the end for you guys and then you won't have to go around or be vectored back out because of my stubbornness.
ChasenSFO
hen teaser
The thing with SFO is as soon as there is a cloud on the final and someone reports IMC, the airport capacity is cut in half, everything is flow controlled massively, and people start missing commutes. It's very frustrating as the "IMC" often lasts less than 10 minutes but will mess up everything. Thus, it's very common to watch plane after plane call in on the "visual" then watch the landing light pop out of the clouds a minute or two later. After a few minutes of this, eventually one pilot will call and say "They gave us the visual but we're IMC" then everyone get's all pissy and its single ILS vs. dual visual approaches. Flying VFR, you have to be very familiar with this. Many times I've left SQL for a Night Bay Tour with SFO reporting solid VFR only to have to turn back because there is a giant wall of fog and cloud between SFO and downtown SF not being reported.
We really need the NIMBYs to take a hike, spreading the runways would do wonders for this mess. Especially with how frequently one little cloud will blow into just the right spot to blind people for a few seconds yet everything else is clear and a million. To SFO's credit, it was MUCH worse when I started at the airport in '07. Back then flow usually meant flights would be pushed back to 2-3AM routinely. Now, delays usually hover in the 1-2 hour range.
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queeno
Ward of the Guberment
Wow at my time at C90 i found running ILSs 10 times easyier than trying to run VAs less talking ( got en in sight got em in sight got em in sight ), less BS if pilot dosent have the airport because you allready have your spaceing more control of the problem . If they do call the airport or traffic its iceing on the cake, if not who cares. In fact they dont teach you to do VAs they teach ILSs so you can learn to space the aircraft the correct way.....at C90 the technique is called C to A and we are taught 3 speeds 250, 210/200, 180/170 any thing else is just used to massage the final .Maybe thats why we move so much traffic so efficiently !