German Wings A320 crashed

I see that it's a threat. And like you laid out, I have no LEO experience. What I don't see is why when it is a weapon that can only do damage with physical contact unlike a gun or an crossbow, why a gun would be the weapon of choice to stop the assault rather than a tazer, night stick, or pepper spray when physically stopping the guy from closing any more distance is seemingly all it would take to eliminate the threat of getting stabbed.

I'm actually asking because I would like to hear it from someone who knows what they're talking about and learn something, not because I intend to keep pushing the issue. That being said, my hero has always been my grandfather who spent 30 years as a cop and was very proud that he had been able to use a club or pepper spray to stop multiple attempted assaults on himself and other officers rather than having to take a life. But, he retired in 1970, was a WWII Marine, and was kind of crazy(in a good way). Things have surely changed a lot since then for LEOs, but I'd really like to know why so many of these instances that look like they could have been resolved without the loss of human life lead to something like this when the officer is armed with non-lethal weapons and, in cases like the screwdriver video, have other officers to assist.

It's a fair question you raise. In many of these situations, what's clear or not afterwards, may not have been clear at the moment. The big thing is not letting someone get their hands on you or getting into a scuffle situation, because then your primary job becomes protecting your pistol or weapon and not getting it taken or used against you by the suspect. Whatever you have left after that goes towards actually fighting the suspect. So the key is keeping the suspect out of arms reach of you. And that's part and parcel from the suspect injuring/killing you from letting them get too close while they're still a threat or otherwise not subdued.

One thing to remember is that a police officer is not responsible for the choices someone makes. That said, you try to minimize force if at all possible, but it's not always easy to fully anticipate the actions or intent of someone; and with the key being to protect yourself first, you may have to resort to deadly force quickly, especially when met with potential deadly force. Baton or spray are generally for unarmed non-compliant person. However, that too depends, with the totality of circumstances.....such as a large muscular person who has the potential to kill you easily and is making attempts to, such as my BP agent example. It's a tough call at the heat of the moment, and no one wants to end up in a flag-draped coffin due to choices someone else made or the problems that were theirs, that they made yours.
 
The big thing is not letting someone get their hands on you or getting into a scuffle situation,

We used to teach it as "Nobody touches the electric suit"

I don't want to get into a debate, but a serious question was asked so here's my take on the question..

Granted I've been retired a few years and I'm not sure where the tazers fit in the below picture, it probably depends on the state, but;

This is why we train a use of force continuum for confrontations. We don't want our officers to match the level of force when attacked or resisted, they should one up the actor. If the actor is resisting or attacking physically, then meet that with mechanical/chemical (nightstick or pepper spray). If he comes at you with something mechanical, you react with tazer (even this is questionable) if you happen to have one but the if you don't (tazers are just coming to NJ) the next step is lethal/deadly. If someone attacks me with a pipe? bat? I'm not fighting him with a nightstick, the sig is coming out.

Even if a person attacks you physically, without a weapon, and it gets to a point where you are in "imminent fear for that you may be killed or or sustain serious bodily harm", you are authorized to use deadly force.

I didn't get paid to fight "fair", I got paid to win (and go home)

I've seen too many officers pussyfoot around with suspects that resisted and got hurt themselves because they didn't use the appropriate amount of force to overcome the resistance quickly. Broken eye sockets, injured joints, head injuries from hitting the ground wrestling with suspects, two were even shot. One spent 9 months of recuperation time and came back on the job. Officers arresting the suspect in question tackled him but didn't maintain positive physical control of him, (ever see somebody get tackled and the officers might have a knee in their back and you'd think it was a bad thing, it isn't) he had a 45 in his waist and rolled over shooting. The second officer's wound was very superficial, but it was a gun shot wound to the head. A third officer fatally wounded the suspect.

In your grandfather's case there are probably two factors. One was probably that as he gained experience he developed a better sense for reading people (cops have an experience / luck equation as well), which leads to ... his also being lucky to a degree.

As was I.

Best quote of this derailed thread;
One thing to remember is that a police officer is not responsible for the choices someone makes.
 
I try not to add to the tangent when we don't stay on track with the thread title, but I'll have to make an exception in this case.
In that case, yes. Deadly force should have been used sooner.

In this Dallas case? Their response was all wrong. They started yelling from the get go to drop the screw driver. Yelling at someone off their meds usually doesn't go well. The police should never been sent for this call.
As stated before, your comments are from a position of lack of understanding. It is clear that you get your perception of these situations from news sources. This is no different than an obituary reporter writing an article on aviation....we've all seen it and we've all jumped in to tear it apart right here on JC.

If you want to see some LEOs in deadly force situations, look here:
http://www.odmp.org/search/year
 
Just don't ever, EVER, call the police.


He's bipolar schizo and off his meds says the mother. Less than 10 seconds from door opening to shots fired.

@Cherokee_Cruiser

Perhaps you could move your tiny soapbox/personal agenda, and start your very own LEO bashing/I am an expert on police tactics and they are doing it all wrong thread in the Lav or join in on the one that GX already has going over there, so that the rest of us could look for/read something that actually pertains to the German Wings incident.
 
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I try not to add to the tangent when we don't stay on track with the thread title, but I'll have to make an exception in this case.

As stated before, your comments are from a position of lack of understanding. It is clear that you get your perception of these situations from news sources. This is no different than an obituary reporter writing an article on aviation....we've all seen it and we've all jumped in to tear it apart right here on JC.

If you want to see some LEOs in deadly force situations, look here:
http://www.odmp.org/search/year

That's your opinion. I have mine too.

Back to Germanwings...
 
That's your opinion. I have mine too.

Back to Germanwings...
Yeah, I think we all get this part of your posts. I think what we are trying to do is to educate you so your opinion has real world meaning [not to suggest that you want this, just trying to help]

Just a suggestion, many Law Enforcement Agencies allow citizens to follow an officer while they are on regular patrol. We call it a "Ride Along Program"; contact your local agency and sign up if you can, it's a great way to get a real look (not one skewed by the media or personal bias) at what happens on a daily basis. I think this would do wonders for anyone that is interested in what an Officer is really up against.

NOW, back to GermanWings....
 
Yeah, I think we all get this part of your posts. I think what we are trying to do is to educate you so your opinion has real world meaning [not to suggest that you want this, just trying to help]

Just a suggestion, many Law Enforcement Agencies allow citizens to follow an officer while they are on regular patrol. We call it a "Ride Along Program"; contact your local agency and sign up if you can, it's a great way to get a real look (not one skewed by the media or personal bias) at what happens on a daily basis. I think this would do wonders for anyone that is interested in what an Officer is really up against.

NOW, back to GermanWings....

I've done that once before, long ago. But then again, that was a calm, routine day.

I still think society in general has not learned how to deal with the mentally sick/ill and off their meds. There needs to be a better reaction. In that particular case, the guy was standing there with a screw driver. It didn't get escalated until the screaming at him started. When someone is off their meds, this isn't going to go well.


And your link actually shows that many officers are killed by other means....

Cause of Death: Struck by vehicle
Cause of Death: Vehicle pursuit
Cause of Death: Heart attack
Cause of Death: Automobile accident
Cause of Death: Automobile accident
Cause of Death: 9/11 related illness
Cause of Death: Heart attack
Cause of Death: Automobile accident
Cause of Death: Gunfire (Accidental)
Cause of Death: Automobile accident

As of right now those are the 10 most recent. Only one gunfire, and it's listed as accidental. It was a real life knife training exercise gone bad.....

accidentally shot and killed during a training exercise at the Mississippi Gaming Commission's office in Robinsonville, Mississippi, at approximately 9:00 am.

xxxxxxx was role playing an attacker with an edged weapon. The agent being attacked in the exercise drew his service weapon, which contained a live round, and fire once, striking xxxxxxx in the chest.

That's just sad and tragic.
 
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I've done that once before, long ago. But then again, that was a calm, routine day.

I still think society in general has not learned how to deal with the mentally sick/ill and off their meds. There needs to be a better reaction. In that particular case, the guy was standing there with a screw driver. It didn't get escalated until the screaming at him started. When someone is off their meds, this isn't going to go well.


And your link actually shows that many officers are killed by other means....

Cause of Death: Struck by vehicle
Cause of Death: Vehicle pursuit
Cause of Death: Heart attack
Cause of Death: Automobile accident
Cause of Death: Automobile accident
Cause of Death: 9/11 related illness
Cause of Death: Heart attack
Cause of Death: Automobile accident
Cause of Death: Gunfire (Accidental)
Cause of Death: Automobile accident

As of right now those are the 10 most recent. Only one gunfire, and it's listed as accidental. It was a real life knife training exercise gone bad.....

accidentally shot and killed during a training exercise at the Mississippi Gaming Commission's office in Robinsonville, Mississippi, at approximately 9:00 am.

xxxxxxx was role playing an attacker with an edged weapon. The agent being attacked in the exercise drew his service weapon, which contained a live round, and fire once, striking xxxxxxx in the chest.

That's just sad and tragic.

You and I aren't looking at the same web page; go to the link I posted. There you will find that of the last 10 officers killed, FOUR were at the aggressive hands of others, 3 by gunfire and one physical assault. One gunfire was a mental call (suicidal) and the assault was while trying to break up a fight.

Not sure where you were looking and I'm not sure what your point is.....
 
You and I aren't looking at the same web page; go to the link I posted. There you will find that of the last 10 officers killed, FOUR were at the aggressive hands of others, 3 by gunfire and one physical assault. One gunfire was a mental call (suicidal) and the assault was while trying to break up a fight.

Not sure where you were looking and I'm not sure what your point is.....

As a sidenote from a(n opinionated but uninvolved) third party: Looking at the link you posted, I see exactly the same list CC posted.

-Fox
 
OW.. WHYDTH YOU DO THATH?! Foxth tongueth are thenthitive. >.<;
Because you BOTH are looking at the FIRST 10 deaths of 2015, not the most recent as CC posted. Regardless, the point was lost....and THAT is sad....
 
I think this is something that is seriously overlooked. When people break a leg or an arm, nobody says to just get over it, they go see a doctor. With mental health we can't physically see the damage until it's too late, and way too many people think you can just say "get over it" or "it'll get better" and that will solve all problems. People with mental health issues can't just get over it.

Precisely.

My mother was a psychiatric nurse and the stories are astounding. People, in the day, would throw their family in "institutions" at the first sign of mental illness in order to keep their family looking "pure". If one of the siblings had cancer, there would be a groundswell of support, strength and pretty colored t-shirta, but if it was anything psychological, families and friends are so swift to label them a pariah and cast them away to never be seen again in the MANY mental institutions that we've all got family in.

Yes, ALL. Ask around.
 
Precisely.

My mother was a psychiatric nurse and the stories are astounding. People, in the day, would throw their family in "institutions" at the first sign of mental illness in order to keep their family looking "pure". If one of the siblings had cancer, there would be a groundswell of support, strength and pretty colored t-shirta, but if it was anything psychological, families and friends are so swift to label them a pariah and cast them away to never be seen again in the MANY mental institutions that we've all got family in.

Yes, ALL. Ask around.

Nostalgia.
 
To one up the bad guy, it is precisely why the Dulles airport rent-a-cops now carry AR-15s strapped in front of themselves like they are some special forces group. It makes me shudder to think someone allowed those guys to have them. I am not sure I would trust them with anything more than a can of pepper spray and 2 shiny quarters to call the real cops when things get bad.

I do think mental health and implications both in this country and around the world need better understanding. All too often we understand the "being sick" but not being "mentally sick." All sicknesses need better understand from society and a desire to help rather than to embarrass or shame.
 
To one up the bad guy, it is precisely why the Dulles airport rent-a-cops now carry AR-15s strapped in front of themselves like they are some special forces group. It makes me shudder to think someone allowed those guys to have them. I am not sure I would trust them with anything more than a can of pepper spray and 2 shiny quarters to call the real cops when things get bad.

I do think mental health and implications both in this country and around the world need better understanding. All too often we understand the "being sick" but not being "mentally sick." All sicknesses need better understand from society and a desire to help rather than to embarrass or shame.

Are you sure they are rent-a-cops? Typically airport police are real police just assigned to the airport by whatever governing body is over the airport.
 
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