16-year-old pilot, crash, 1 fatal

I'd much rather have a farm kid that grew up operating machines at 16 than a city dweller that only knew how to operate an iPhone at 35 but that's just my anti-hipsterism. I think it just depends on the person. This is what terrifies me about ever being an instructor though - how you'd live with it if a student, much less a kid, croaked in a wreck.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Nonsense. It's only been in the past century or so that society has even considered a 17 year old a child. People that age have been leading troops into battles for eons. A mature 17 year old can handle a plane just fine.
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I was going to say you were wrong Todd, but after that point you are correct. However society and culture has changed since eons ago. A 17 year old in 1800 is vastly more mature than a 17 year old in 2015. You can't make the argument that he is capable of it because either he is or is not. I don't believe many can be in our society anymore.
 
In my old church, a long time ago, a parishioner had to come to grips with a diary, bayonet and some Japanese paraphernalia, as he went through his father's belongings following the funeral.

His dad, at 17, had landed on Guadalcanal as a United States Marine. His surreptitious diary kept record of things both needful and unspeakable.

My friend, in a time far removed from that epic struggle, wrestled to accept a young man he never knew and couldn't imagine, from an age when the world was at war. It was hard for him to reconcile that unknown teen with the father he knew and loved as a different man.

Adolescents protected, changed, and formed the world in which many of us grew, a long time ago.

They can certainly fly airplanes, too. Even today.
 
mrivc211 said:
I was going to say you were wrong Todd, but after that point you are correct. However society and culture has changed since eons ago. A 17 year old in 1800 is vastly more mature than a 17 year old in 2015. You can't make the argument that he is capable of it because either he is or is not. I don't believe many can be in our society anymore.
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It's certainly an individual thing, so I agree that some are capable and some aren't. I just take issue with the claims made by one poster in particular that they simply don't have the experience. Many 17 year olds are more responsible and demonstrate better decision making abilities than 40 year olds.
 
Experience is certainly a factor when something you have only performed once, or never had to deal with, happens. You may be just fine when everything is routine, but if an emergency that you are not prepared for occurs, and you are alone and do not act quickly enough or act correctly or maybe do not have that bag of tricks to apply and try, or you panic, or you don't know what to do when the one thing you did try did not work, or you are not able to sort things out quickly enough and remain calm, these circumstances or a combo of them may be an issue for a very young pilot with very few hours under their belt. THAT is what I am saying.

We seem to be focusing on maturity solely (which can be an issue, depending on the individual) and completely letting experience as a possible issue fall by the wayside and be disregarded for some reason. If you are the most mature person on the planet, but lacking enough experience, confidence, focus, the ability to control your emotions and not panic, along with the other factors I have mentioned, in certain situations, these aspects can and will be a factor. That is all I am trying to point out.
 
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Exactly, and if you don't have enough experience/time under your belt, that can be a real factor when the unexpected, the unusual or an emergency suddenly arises. You can be mature, you can be 40 years old, but if you don't know what to do, what to try, cannot think/act quickly enough, try one thing and don't know what else to do when that does not work, and lack the experience/time to have become more proficient, this will be an issue for anyone, especially when you are flying alone.
 
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A Life Aloft said:
Exactly, and if you don't have enough experience/time under your belt, that can be a real factor when the unexpected, the unusual or an emergency suddenly arises.
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You seem to miss the point. If you don't allow the inexperienced pilot to get the experience, then he'll never be experienced. Let him fly, he'll get the experience. Tell him that he's too young, and he'll just be an older inexperienced pilot when he finally does fly.

This is the same idiocy that some parents are pushing with increased age limits for driving. These nanny-state morons point to statistics that say that younger drivers are more dangerous, but they're looking at the wrong explanatory variable (probably intentionally so). Younger drivers are more dangerous not because they're young, but because they don't have experience. The only way to get the experience is to drive. So if you raise the driving age (or flying age) to 18, then you just have 18 year olds who now have the same accident statistics as the 16 year olds had before the age limit changed.
 
I never said that 16 is too young to fly a plane did I? I have no idea why you keep focusing on that. YOU have completely missed the point that I have been making. Obviously you only gain experience by performing certain tasks and having different experiences while doing so. BUT, if you lack enough experience/time, when things go awry, that may be a problem. I don't know how much clearer I can make this.
 
A Life Aloft said:
I never said that 16 is too young to fly a plane did I? I have no idea why you keep focusing on that.
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Probably because you said this:

A Life Aloft said:
It's not just a maturity issue at 16 years old, it's a matter of lack of certain experience(s) upon which to draw from. You can be "mature' for your age and still lack experience in many, many things and still not be handle certain circumstances because of your lack of experience. At 16, while you are on your way to adulthood, you are still in many ways, a "kid". You don't have all the coping mechanisms/skills nor the same focus and retention values (which may all fly out the window during a stress situation or an emergency, or some unexpected situation that you are suddenly thrust into) as an adult generally does.
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There is biological evidence that the area of the brain that controls decision making isn't gully developed at 16, so there is a legitimate reason for raising the question of whether young age works against someone.

As a former 16 year old flight student myself, I can say that there were some additional safety risks I assumed due to my age. I was flying a beat up 152 at the time, and the flight school owner for some reason did not like it when people stood on the little fuselage step to get up high enough to look into the tank. One time he ran out and scolded me, telling me I should use the stool he had provided on the ramp. Problem was, the stool wasn't high enough to actually see in the tanks. I took off for the only time in my life without having visually checked the tanks because I didn't feel comfortable questioning an adult who obviously knew what he was talking about. Wouldn't have done that 10-years later.
 
Murdoughnut said:
There is biological evidence that the area of the brain that controls decision making isn't gully developed at 16, so there is a legitimate reason for raising the question of whether young age works against someone.
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You conveniently left out the part that that same evidence says that the brain isn't fully developed until 25. Are we going to bring society to a screeching halt by treating everyone like children until they're 25?
 
Murdoughnut said:
There is biological evidence that the area of the brain that controls decision making isn't gully developed at 16, so there is a legitimate reason for raising the question of whether young age works against someone.

As a former 16 year old flight student myself, I can say that there were some additional safety risks I assumed due to my age. I was flying a beat up 152 at the time, and the flight school owner for some reason did not like it when people stood on the little fuselage step to get up high enough to look into the tank. One time he ran out and scolded me, telling me I should use the stool he had provided on the ramp. Problem was, the stool wasn't high enough to actually see in the tanks. I took off for the only time in my life without having visually checked the tanks because I didn't feel comfortable questioning an adult who obviously knew what he was talking about. Wouldn't have done that 10-years later.
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And this is what I mean. When we are young, (in general) we lack the experience, the confidence, certain coping skills, the judgement and other skills that we develop later much more fully, later in our lives. We are not the same person in our mid twenties for instance, that we were, when we were teenagers, irregardless of how responsible and mature we were as teenagers. Science, neurology, biology and psychology are not to be just dismissed so offhandedly. There are exceptions to everything, but we are talking the norm/average here. At least I am.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
You conveniently left out the part that that same evidence says that the brain isn't fully developed until 25. Are we going to bring society to a screeching halt by treating everyone like children until they're 25?
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Nope. Just a law of averages thing. Still up to the CFI to determine competence, which is fine by me.
 
@ATN_Pilot you beat me by a year. I started at 13 and soloed on my 16th birthday. I remember that day very well because it scared the crap out of me, as it should. I remember taking off and thinking "WTF now I have to land!! My instructor is an idiot for letting me do this!!"

Fast forward 10 years later, I was an instructor teaching 16 and 17 year olds... GIRLS even if you can believe that. I was blown away by the maturity and the success these students had. I feel like if you show up for flight training at that age, and you aren't being pushed into it by a family member, you have a good idea of what you are getting into. I had to beg my parents repetitively to allow me to start training so young. I had to research as much as I could to make my case. I think this is the case quite often with young flight students.
 
mrivc211 said:
I am teaching a 17 year old at the moment. You have to spend A LOT of extra time cementing the responsibility they are being given. I have told them stories of others who have crashed and died to scare the crap out of them from doing stupid things. At the end of the day, they are still a teenager. Important to remember.
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I vividly remember the moment It dawned on me. My father insisted on me getting a College degree before getting flying lessons, so I started at 24. But, none the less, the day It dawned on me I was flying with my brother. I realized that if I did something stupid, my parents would have a double funeral. How would they take it? And hen remember thinking "and on top of that, you'd get payed in the future so and so bucks a month for a LIFE??"

Boom.
 
I never had an issue with any 16 year old or younger students. The ones that started that young (and stuck with it for more than three lessons) seemed to take it very seriously and respected the airplane and the instructor. I had more issues with the 18~21 year old students being immature.

Alex.
 
Like others have said, I don't think I'd worry about a 16 year old listening and following instructions. My bigger worry would be problem solving skills when things got fracked up. Problem solving is a experiential based skill set, and you only have so many experiences at 16.

But before the resident troll chimes in, I still think it's up to the CFI to determine.
 
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